Author Topic: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie  (Read 31922 times)

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Online Babblelot

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #160 on: September 22, 2008, 05:59:15 PM »
Ironically, with respect to the presidential election, swish's and I live in Illinois and our votes ain't worth diddley-doo. The Ohioans like Jamesd, Buckeye, Scooter and FreeBird, on the otherhand, have the fate of our country in their hands...again. In 2000 and 2004, Ohio voted for Bush. They look like they are satisfied with the status quo, and will vote for McCain.

kickserve, just curious. This is by no means a slam, quite the contrary. I'm just curious how knowledgable you are about our pesidential election.

I had to clean it up, but do you understand why I made the distinction between a "worthless" Illinois vote and a "critical" Ohio vote? If you do, I'd say you are ahead of 99% of the US population.

Illinois: guaranteed to be won by one party or the other, so whoever you vote for, it wont matter, the seat will be won by the same party that's always won it.
Ohio: swing state, whoever wins more of those will win, usually quite close?

That was my assumption, seeing as it works similar here.

That's some of it. Do you have an electoral college (or its equivalent), too? I don't know how it works there, but here, all that matters are electoral votes won. Most states won and the winner of the popular vote are irrelevant.

Thing is, many Americans become outraged when they learn that the canidate who wins the popular vote won't win the election. This did happen in 2000 Gore v Bush, but it also was a lightning rod issue during the Democratic Primary race between Clinton and Obama.

The way it works over here is the nation (England, Scotland and Wales) is divided into about 600 constituencies, each worth 1 seat in the House of Commons. Each party will nominate 1 candidate to run in each constituency, whoever wins each constituency gets a seat in the House of Commons. The Party Leader who's Party have won the most seats is invited by the Queen to form a Government and be the Prime Minister. However, to pass any law, the PM has to put it to vote in the HOC, so he needs to support of MP's in his Party and sometimes in other parties as well. From what I hear from US, once Bush was elected President, he could do whatever the hell he liked?

With respect ^^^that^^^, that's not how the system worked when Bush was elected. But that's for another discussion. I'm limiting this one to how our president is elected.

If I'm not mistaken, our system is unique. It was designed to level the playing field between big states (your consituencies) and small states. In practice today, however, population growth and distribution has brought about the opposite, equally undesirable, effect in which the smaller states have too much power relative to the larger states.

As I understand your system, the size of a constituency is irrelavant. It then follows that a constituency with 100,000 is weighted as the equal of a constituency of 10,000. Here, the idea is to weight the two states (constituencies) equally. But population growth and distribution has made that impossible. When it was somewhat easier to adjust for a 10:1 differential, today we have the differencial between two states as great as 60:1. As a result, the balance of relative power has shifted toward the smaller states.

Again, my only interest here is to find out if you understand our system better than 99% of Americans. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were the case.
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Offline Pacer

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #161 on: September 23, 2008, 12:55:08 AM »
Well, by the looks of this board, and the number of bumper stickers I see, it looks like the Obama supporters will be happy come November.
But there is one thing you have to keep into account.
There are sharks in the water. Hillary Clinton is still out there, and she just may torpedo Obama's campaign just like she torpedoed John Kerry.

But you live in a blue state. I was in Texas and Arizona recently and I've never seen so many Nobama/pro-McCain bumper stickers in my life. I went to this little pro shop while I was in Texas to pick up some strings and stuff, I had on an Obama t-shirt and the stringer says "He's a Muslim, why would you vote for a Muslim for president in our country?" Some people are hopeless. ..-)

Anyhow the democrats have out registered republicans the past few years and Obama's ground game is pretty massive, but given this country's recent voting record, it would not surprise me if he doesn't win. A lot of people just aren't "comfortable" with Obama.

I'm not really comfortable with Obama either, but it has nothing to do with the Muslim rumors.

I can understand the Muslim statement, a lot of people vote because of race, religion or some other factor they think is important. I think many blacks will vote for Obama because of race, not a good reason in itself but will make up reasons to justify the decision.
Normal behavior for humans is to gravitate toward what is familiar.


So that's it? Just give in to your urges and go with what is familiar? What makes us any different than dogs? Human beings have the unique ability to reason, to rationalize to seek answers,to reflect. We have a level of self-awareness unlike any other species. That self-awareness allows us to question our motives, our intentions, our beliefs, our surroundings. We have the ability to enlighten ourselves, to look deeper into ourselves and others. To prejudge is a natural human condition, yes, it's our survival instinct. We tend to group things(and of course people) together and assign either positive or negative qualities to them. But again we have the ability to look deeper if we choose to do so.

Place an apple on the table and we can choose to see it as just another apple or we can attempt to discern what kind of apple it is. A red delicious, granny smith, big, small, sweet, tart, bland. We can reflect on what makes that particular apple different from other apples simply by choosing to look deeper. It's all about choices. So I'm not going to buy the "it's natural to be a bigot" argument for not voting for a particular candidate. That's a choice, you choose to be a bigot. You choose not to enlighten yourself, you choose to give into your  baser impulses. Don't blame it on your species.
^^^ Oh and I'm not targetting you Swish, I was just making a point. ;-()

I never thought you were, but thanks.
I really don't dislike Obama, but he is a major league clown.
If he does make it he'll have plenty of advisors and PR people to help him, not much different from what we're used to. Just my opinion here and I'm sure someone might think differently.

That's right it's your opinion. I've seen nothing in Obama that even resembles "a major league clown." Not in the least. If anyone has shown themselves to be a clown it would be McCain. You started this whole thread based on a false premise. Maybe if you actually studied the issues on your own and instead of regurgitating O'reillyism's , you might have a basis for calling someone a clown.

The only clowns I know are those working class folks who continue to vote Republican in every election cycle as more jobs are sent overseas, more tax cuts to the wealthy, and everything around them turns to s**t. Those are the clowns who let silly wedge issues drive them to the polls. "I can barely rub two nickles together but I'll be damned if I'll let those gays get married."  Or the classic "I'm just not comfortable voting for a black man." Well I guess they're comfortable not having a job or food on their tables. I hope they can take comfort in that. Those are the clowns. Just keep cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'll be fine financially whether or Obama wins or loses, but it's the people who need him to win the most who sit around and call him a clown. The whole world wants Obama in the White house, because believe it or not, who we put in the White house has a major impact throughout the world. But we have people here who get all their political info from Sean Hannity and ABC news calling the one the world wants and needs a clown. Just my opinion. :)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 02:33:27 AM by Pacer »
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Offline Pacer

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #162 on: September 23, 2008, 01:22:47 AM »
That Palin woman scares the living crap out of me :zipped:

The most pathetic thing I read recently was that the VP debate format would be altered to pretty much protect Palin from Biden. The McCain campaign made the case that Palin is a relatively inexperienced debater and because of this, she would largely be on the defensive.The new debate format will provide less time for direct exchanges between the running mates.

I'm hearing that this request may have been denied, hopefully I'll find out soon. But I had to laugh, they want to talk about how experienced and ready she is but they are afraid to even let her go off script. McCain is such a joke, I just have to laugh :rofl_2: He has pretty much shown that he puts winning before country. Sister Sarah mooseburger is clearly over her head. She needs to go back to Alaska, she has a wedding to help plan. ..-)

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 01:26:55 AM by Pacer »
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Offline jeffrx

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #163 on: September 23, 2008, 10:06:12 AM »
That Palin woman scares the living crap out of me :zipped:

The most pathetic thing I read recently was that the VP debate format would be altered to pretty much protect Palin from Biden. The McCain campaign made the case that Palin is a relatively inexperienced debater and because of this, she would largely be on the defensive.The new debate format will provide less time for direct exchanges between the running mates.

I'm hearing that this request may have been denied, hopefully I'll find out soon. But I had to laugh, they want to talk about how experienced and ready she is but they are afraid to even let her go off script. McCain is such a joke, I just have to laugh :rofl_2: He has pretty much shown that he puts winning before country. Sister Sarah mooseburger is clearly over her head. She needs to go back to Alaska, she has a wedding to help plan. ..-)



Biden is capable of running the country in the event that something happens to Obama.  Palin is not.  Obama, therefore, put his country first in his VP choice, while McCain did not.

If McCain wins, it will be an absolute joke and, more importantly, a disaster.
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Offline Jamesdster

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #164 on: September 23, 2008, 10:54:02 AM »
To be sung to the music of Simon and Garfunkel.....where have you gone Lyndon Larouche...our nation turns it lonely eyes to you....woo hoo hoo  :whistle:
I was at this casino minding my own business, and this guy came up to me and said, "You're gonna have to move, you're blocking a fire exit." As though if there was a fire, I wasn't gonna run. If you're flammible and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit.  - Mitch Hedberg

Online Babblelot

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #165 on: September 23, 2008, 01:16:03 PM »
To be sung to the music of Simon and Garfunkel.....where have you gone Lyndon Larouche...our nation turns it lonely eyes to you....woo hoo hoo  :whistle:

There's nothing wrong with the libertarian philosophy. I find myself in agreement with its general tenents. Problem is, the Libertarian Party has usurpted the name and their political platform isn't representative of the ideology. Regardless, conservatives, and in particular the neocons who run this party now, should be most irrate about the $700B federal bailout of financial markets. But as with everything, there's ALWAYS a loophole for these a-holes.
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Offline Swish

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #166 on: September 23, 2008, 06:58:37 PM »
Well, by the looks of this board, and the number of bumper stickers I see, it looks like the Obama supporters will be happy come November.
But there is one thing you have to keep into account.
There are sharks in the water. Hillary Clinton is still out there, and she just may torpedo Obama's campaign just like she torpedoed John Kerry.

But you live in a blue state. I was in Texas and Arizona recently and I've never seen so many Nobama/pro-McCain bumper stickers in my life. I went to this little pro shop while I was in Texas to pick up some strings and stuff, I had on an Obama t-shirt and the stringer says "He's a Muslim, why would you vote for a Muslim for president in our country?" Some people are hopeless. ..-)

Anyhow the democrats have out registered republicans the past few years and Obama's ground game is pretty massive, but given this country's recent voting record, it would not surprise me if he doesn't win. A lot of people just aren't "comfortable" with Obama.

I'm not really comfortable with Obama either, but it has nothing to do with the Muslim rumors.

I can understand the Muslim statement, a lot of people vote because of race, religion or some other factor they think is important. I think many blacks will vote for Obama because of race, not a good reason in itself but will make up reasons to justify the decision.
Normal behavior for humans is to gravitate toward what is familiar.


So that's it? Just give in to your urges and go with what is familiar? What makes us any different than dogs? Human beings have the unique ability to reason, to rationalize to seek answers,to reflect. We have a level of self-awareness unlike any other species. That self-awareness allows us to question our motives, our intentions, our beliefs, our surroundings. We have the ability to enlighten ourselves, to look deeper into ourselves and others. To prejudge is a natural human condition, yes, it's our survival instinct. We tend to group things(and of course people) together and assign either positive or negative qualities to them. But again we have the ability to look deeper if we choose to do so.

Place an apple on the table and we can choose to see it as just another apple or we can attempt to discern what kind of apple it is. A red delicious, granny smith, big, small, sweet, tart, bland. We can reflect on what makes that particular apple different from other apples simply by choosing to look deeper. It's all about choices. So I'm not going to buy the "it's natural to be a bigot" argument for not voting for a particular candidate. That's a choice, you choose to be a bigot. You choose not to enlighten yourself, you choose to give into your  baser impulses. Don't blame it on your species.
^^^ Oh and I'm not targetting you Swish, I was just making a point. ;-()

I never thought you were, but thanks.
I really don't dislike Obama, but he is a major league clown.
If he does make it he'll have plenty of advisors and PR people to help him, not much different from what we're used to. Just my opinion here and I'm sure someone might think differently.

That's right it's your opinion. I've seen nothing in Obama that even resembles "a major league clown." Not in the least. If anyone has shown themselves to be a clown it would be McCain. You started this whole thread based on a false premise. Maybe if you actually studied the issues on your own and instead of regurgitating O'reillyism's , you might have a basis for calling someone a clown.

The only clowns I know are those working class folks who continue to vote Republican in every election cycle as more jobs are sent overseas, more tax cuts to the wealthy, and everything around them turns to s**t. Those are the clowns who let silly wedge issues drive them to the polls. "I can barely rub two nickles together but I'll be damned if I'll let those gays get married."  Or the classic "I'm just not comfortable voting for a black man." Well I guess they're comfortable not having a job or food on their tables. I hope they can take comfort in that. Those are the clowns. Just keep cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'll be fine financially whether or Obama wins or loses, but it's the people who need him to win the most who sit around and call him a clown. The whole world wants Obama in the White house, because believe it or not, who we put in the White house has a major impact throughout the world. But we have people here who get all their political info from Sean Hannity and ABC news calling the one the world wants and needs a clown. Just my opinion. :)

I've wrote the guy about the problems that the FDA is having, being in bed with the pharmaceutical companies. I get a generic response, he's on the fence about it and tries to sugar coat it, that's a clown to me. This delays life saving natural and any other kind of therapy that threatens the drug companies profits. Denying people that are terminally ill the chance to use a unproven but promising drug. Millions of people are dying right now because of this problem and he won't make a stand.

He just wants to get elected. Using the word clown is being very nice. You could be next or someone you love.
It's a serious problem, I don't blame you if you didn't know about it, not enough people do.

Maybe puppet would be be the proper word.

Offline pawan89

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #167 on: September 23, 2008, 09:43:05 PM »
on one hand, I could care less for politics because.. well you know, they all suck and .. 'I tried so hard, and got so far.. in the end, it doesn't even matter!' (linkin park..) Either way whoever's president will generally speaking lookout for the well being of the country, some fail, some succeed and that's how it rolls.

In this cultural-political environment, I find it very curious that a scientist is apathetic...

Well I mean, its clearly relevant and plays a big role. As far as Physics is concerned, I wouldn't have been around Chicago at all if we didn't get the money to waste on silly undergraduates like myself. Now if the politicians cut that out...
And engineering jobs, I am really interested in the defense industries and that's something that'll also depend on the politics of the day.

But the thing is in the long run, money will be and will have to be spent on science and technology. IF there's one thing that keeps America at the top even with all the crappy politics is the science and technology that powers the rest of the economic driving things like IT industry and whatnot. Same goes for engineering and defense industries... The government, no matter who is in power, just can't say no to the likes of lockheed martin and boeing who keep us at the forefront. It's a must. And every leader knows this. Temporarily there might be reduced funding and whatnot but these are things that in general don't come and go with a new president.

Personally, politics just operates on a whole different plane. It's a good topic to talk about to get my mind away from the important things in life but clearly not worth getting too deep into it because, as I said, some things are just beyond my comprehension and things seem so obvious to us logical minded third person observers who support one view or another and yet the strangest of things take place. you know.. for example Palin. Like seriously, is there anything more I can say about that than "WTF?"
So yeah. It's very interesting to study and look at without getting involved and I like it for that. But theres many things like that and I don't really care to get involved.


Online Babblelot

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #168 on: September 24, 2008, 12:26:34 PM »
on one hand, I could care less for politics because.. well you know, they all suck and .. 'I tried so hard, and got so far.. in the end, it doesn't even matter!' (linkin park..) Either way whoever's president will generally speaking lookout for the well being of the country, some fail, some succeed and that's how it rolls.

In this cultural-political environment, I find it very curious that a scientist is apathetic...

Well I mean, its clearly relevant and plays a big role. As far as Physics is concerned, I wouldn't have been around Chicago at all if we didn't get the money to waste on silly undergraduates like myself. Now if the politicians cut that out...
And engineering jobs, I am really interested in the defense industries and that's something that'll also depend on the politics of the day.

But the thing is in the long run, money will be and will have to be spent on science and technology. IF there's one thing that keeps America at the top even with all the crappy politics is the science and technology that powers the rest of the economic driving things like IT industry and whatnot. Same goes for engineering and defense industries... The government, no matter who is in power, just can't say no to the likes of lockheed martin and boeing who keep us at the forefront. It's a must. And every leader knows this. Temporarily there might be reduced funding and whatnot but these are things that in general don't come and go with a new president.

Personally, politics just operates on a whole different plane. It's a good topic to talk about to get my mind away from the important things in life but clearly not worth getting too deep into it because, as I said, some things are just beyond my comprehension and things seem so obvious to us logical minded third person observers who support one view or another and yet the strangest of things take place. you know.. for example Palin. Like seriously, is there anything more I can say about that than "WTF?"
So yeah. It's very interesting to study and look at without getting involved and I like it for that. But theres many things like that and I don't really care to get involved.

Pretty good answer. Not knowing your field, per se, I was thinking along the lines of ideology when it butts heads with science. Got to know who the whack-jobs are so you don't forget to vote for someone else  ;-()
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Offline Pacer

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #169 on: September 24, 2008, 08:42:53 PM »
Well, by the looks of this board, and the number of bumper stickers I see, it looks like the Obama supporters will be happy come November.
But there is one thing you have to keep into account.
There are sharks in the water. Hillary Clinton is still out there, and she just may torpedo Obama's campaign just like she torpedoed John Kerry.

But you live in a blue state. I was in Texas and Arizona recently and I've never seen so many Nobama/pro-McCain bumper stickers in my life. I went to this little pro shop while I was in Texas to pick up some strings and stuff, I had on an Obama t-shirt and the stringer says "He's a Muslim, why would you vote for a Muslim for president in our country?" Some people are hopeless. ..-)

Anyhow the democrats have out registered republicans the past few years and Obama's ground game is pretty massive, but given this country's recent voting record, it would not surprise me if he doesn't win. A lot of people just aren't "comfortable" with Obama.

I'm not really comfortable with Obama either, but it has nothing to do with the Muslim rumors.

I can understand the Muslim statement, a lot of people vote because of race, religion or some other factor they think is important. I think many blacks will vote for Obama because of race, not a good reason in itself but will make up reasons to justify the decision.
Normal behavior for humans is to gravitate toward what is familiar.


So that's it? Just give in to your urges and go with what is familiar? What makes us any different than dogs? Human beings have the unique ability to reason, to rationalize to seek answers,to reflect. We have a level of self-awareness unlike any other species. That self-awareness allows us to question our motives, our intentions, our beliefs, our surroundings. We have the ability to enlighten ourselves, to look deeper into ourselves and others. To prejudge is a natural human condition, yes, it's our survival instinct. We tend to group things(and of course people) together and assign either positive or negative qualities to them. But again we have the ability to look deeper if we choose to do so.

Place an apple on the table and we can choose to see it as just another apple or we can attempt to discern what kind of apple it is. A red delicious, granny smith, big, small, sweet, tart, bland. We can reflect on what makes that particular apple different from other apples simply by choosing to look deeper. It's all about choices. So I'm not going to buy the "it's natural to be a bigot" argument for not voting for a particular candidate. That's a choice, you choose to be a bigot. You choose not to enlighten yourself, you choose to give into your  baser impulses. Don't blame it on your species.
^^^ Oh and I'm not targetting you Swish, I was just making a point. ;-()

I never thought you were, but thanks.
I really don't dislike Obama, but he is a major league clown.
If he does make it he'll have plenty of advisors and PR people to help him, not much different from what we're used to. Just my opinion here and I'm sure someone might think differently.

That's right it's your opinion. I've seen nothing in Obama that even resembles "a major league clown." Not in the least. If anyone has shown themselves to be a clown it would be McCain. You started this whole thread based on a false premise. Maybe if you actually studied the issues on your own and instead of regurgitating O'reillyism's , you might have a basis for calling someone a clown.

The only clowns I know are those working class folks who continue to vote Republican in every election cycle as more jobs are sent overseas, more tax cuts to the wealthy, and everything around them turns to s**t. Those are the clowns who let silly wedge issues drive them to the polls. "I can barely rub two nickles together but I'll be damned if I'll let those gays get married."  Or the classic "I'm just not comfortable voting for a black man." Well I guess they're comfortable not having a job or food on their tables. I hope they can take comfort in that. Those are the clowns. Just keep cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'll be fine financially whether or Obama wins or loses, but it's the people who need him to win the most who sit around and call him a clown. The whole world wants Obama in the White house, because believe it or not, who we put in the White house has a major impact throughout the world. But we have people here who get all their political info from Sean Hannity and ABC news calling the one the world wants and needs a clown. Just my opinion. :)

I've wrote the guy about the problems that the FDA is having, being in bed with the pharmaceutical companies. I get a generic response, he's on the fence about it and tries to sugar coat it, that's a clown to me. This delays life saving natural and any other kind of therapy that threatens the drug companies profits. Denying people that are terminally ill the chance to use a unproven but promising drug. Millions of people are dying right now because of this problem and he won't make a stand.

He just wants to get elected. Using the word clown is being very nice. You could be next or someone you love.
It's a serious problem, I don't blame you if you didn't know about it, not enough people do.

Maybe puppet would be be the proper word.

Swish,

 In the not too distant past, I was what youíd call terminally ill. Though Iím far from a single issue voter, one of the primary reasons I support Senator Obama IS because of his stance on healthcare.

Senator Obama supports genomic research. Which is the study of how a person's genetic makeup affects propensity for disease and response to treatment. In 2006 he introduced Genomics and Personalized Medicine Act, which would increase funding for research on genomics, expand the genomics workforce, provide a tax credit for the development of diagnostic tests that can improve the safety or effectiveness of drugs, and reaffirm the need to protect genetic privacy.

Obama supports the importation of drugs and believes that pharmaceutical companies should only profit when their work producing groundbreaking new drugs. He is well aware that Americans are being exploited by pharmaceutical companies who charge Americans high premiums while selling the drugs for much cheaper overseas. Obama will allow Americans to buy their medicines from other developed countries if the drugs are safe and prices are lower outside the U.S.

Obama  favors reforming Medicare Part D to allow the government to negotiate prices with the pharmaceutical industry The Senator plans to repeal the ban on direct negotiation with drug companies and use the resulting savings, which could be  to further invest in improving health care coverage and quality.

 Obama is well aware that many drug manufacturers are paying generic drug makers not to enter the market so they can keep their monopolies and keep charging Americans incredibly high prices for brand name products. Obama will increase the use of generic medications in the new public plan. He will do this by preventing large drug companies from keeping generics out of market.

Obama also plans to advance the biomedical research field. This is just huge for me.

Obama has also supported various FDA reform bills as a Senator. One in particular was a move toward ending the practice of letting scientists with financial conflicts of interest serve on FDA advisory panels.

I think your continued insistence the Obama is a clown or a puppet has no merit, just as your very first post in this thread didn't. It speaks to the anti-intellectual nature of our society imo. You donít seem to hold Senator McCain to the same standard which leads me to believe that you must be a biter ex Hillary supporter? A puma member? :Confused:

And Swish donít take anything I say to you as an attack. It may seem that way but itís not an attack. Iím addressing your beliefs(and you do have a right to them) and those who share similar beliefs but arenít willing to share them. So I was really addressing the readers out there in cyber land, when I made some of those more extreme comments in my other posts. I mean you live in a blue state anyway. You can vote for Mickey Mouse for all I care. :rofl_2:








« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 08:44:49 PM by Pacer »
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Offline dmastous

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #170 on: September 24, 2008, 08:45:20 PM »
You can vote for Mickey Mouse for all I care. :rofl_2:

I'll go on record as saying I would never vote for Micky Mouse. :nono:


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Offline Pacer

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #171 on: September 24, 2008, 08:55:53 PM »
That Palin woman scares the living crap out of me :zipped:

The most pathetic thing I read recently was that the VP debate format would be altered to pretty much protect Palin from Biden. The McCain campaign made the case that Palin is a relatively inexperienced debater and because of this, she would largely be on the defensive.The new debate format will provide less time for direct exchanges between the running mates.

I'm hearing that this request may have been denied, hopefully I'll find out soon. But I had to laugh, they want to talk about how experienced and ready she is but they are afraid to even let her go off script. McCain is such a joke, I just have to laugh :rofl_2: He has pretty much shown that he puts winning before country. Sister Sarah mooseburger is clearly over her head. She needs to go back to Alaska, she has a wedding to help plan. ..-)



Biden is capable of running the country in the event that something happens to Obama.  Palin is not.  Obama, therefore, put his country first in his VP choice, while McCain did not.

If McCain wins, it will be an absolute joke and, more importantly, a disaster.

And the McCain campaign won't even let us get to know her. A month and a half left before the election and this woman is still in seclusion from the press. What?! I feel like I'm in an episode of the Twilight Zone. I don't get it, I just don't get it. Now McCain is chickening out from the debate on Friday. What on earth? Again I don't' get it. Yet we are supposed to believe that these two should hold the two most powerful postions on the planet, huh? :Confused:
Maybe we're all being punk'd.
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Offline jeffrx

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #172 on: September 25, 2008, 07:54:06 AM »
McCain, in a political ploy, has attempted to cancel the debate.  The funny thing is that he tried to take credit for Obama's idea to talk about the economic crisis.  Obama suggested they issue a joint statement, which McCain agreed to.  However, McCain issued his own statement and left Obama in the cold, even though it was his idea in the first place.

Now, we see McCain ducking the debate.  This is just priceless.  He's attempting to twist this to make it look like he is putting "Country first," but in reality he should be able to deal with the economy AND have the debate. 

He clearly wants this debate to be pushed aside, with the main goal being a cancellation of the VP debate, in which Palin would be exposed as a fraud.  This is a poor attempt to save his fledging campaign and I'm glad that most people can see that now! 
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Offline Swish

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #173 on: September 25, 2008, 08:35:49 AM »
Well, by the looks of this board, and the number of bumper stickers I see, it looks like the Obama supporters will be happy come November.
But there is one thing you have to keep into account.
There are sharks in the water. Hillary Clinton is still out there, and she just may torpedo Obama's campaign just like she torpedoed John Kerry.

But you live in a blue state. I was in Texas and Arizona recently and I've never seen so many Nobama/pro-McCain bumper stickers in my life. I went to this little pro shop while I was in Texas to pick up some strings and stuff, I had on an Obama t-shirt and the stringer says "He's a Muslim, why would you vote for a Muslim for president in our country?" Some people are hopeless. ..-)

Anyhow the democrats have out registered republicans the past few years and Obama's ground game is pretty massive, but given this country's recent voting record, it would not surprise me if he doesn't win. A lot of people just aren't "comfortable" with Obama.

I'm not really comfortable with Obama either, but it has nothing to do with the Muslim rumors.

I can understand the Muslim statement, a lot of people vote because of race, religion or some other factor they think is important. I think many blacks will vote for Obama because of race, not a good reason in itself but will make up reasons to justify the decision.
Normal behavior for humans is to gravitate toward what is familiar.


So that's it? Just give in to your urges and go with what is familiar? What makes us any different than dogs? Human beings have the unique ability to reason, to rationalize to seek answers,to reflect. We have a level of self-awareness unlike any other species. That self-awareness allows us to question our motives, our intentions, our beliefs, our surroundings. We have the ability to enlighten ourselves, to look deeper into ourselves and others. To prejudge is a natural human condition, yes, it's our survival instinct. We tend to group things(and of course people) together and assign either positive or negative qualities to them. But again we have the ability to look deeper if we choose to do so.

Place an apple on the table and we can choose to see it as just another apple or we can attempt to discern what kind of apple it is. A red delicious, granny smith, big, small, sweet, tart, bland. We can reflect on what makes that particular apple different from other apples simply by choosing to look deeper. It's all about choices. So I'm not going to buy the "it's natural to be a bigot" argument for not voting for a particular candidate. That's a choice, you choose to be a bigot. You choose not to enlighten yourself, you choose to give into your  baser impulses. Don't blame it on your species.
^^^ Oh and I'm not targetting you Swish, I was just making a point. ;-()

I never thought you were, but thanks.
I really don't dislike Obama, but he is a major league clown.
If he does make it he'll have plenty of advisors and PR people to help him, not much different from what we're used to. Just my opinion here and I'm sure someone might think differently.

That's right it's your opinion. I've seen nothing in Obama that even resembles "a major league clown." Not in the least. If anyone has shown themselves to be a clown it would be McCain. You started this whole thread based on a false premise. Maybe if you actually studied the issues on your own and instead of regurgitating O'reillyism's , you might have a basis for calling someone a clown.

The only clowns I know are those working class folks who continue to vote Republican in every election cycle as more jobs are sent overseas, more tax cuts to the wealthy, and everything around them turns to s**t. Those are the clowns who let silly wedge issues drive them to the polls. "I can barely rub two nickles together but I'll be damned if I'll let those gays get married."  Or the classic "I'm just not comfortable voting for a black man." Well I guess they're comfortable not having a job or food on their tables. I hope they can take comfort in that. Those are the clowns. Just keep cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'll be fine financially whether or Obama wins or loses, but it's the people who need him to win the most who sit around and call him a clown. The whole world wants Obama in the White house, because believe it or not, who we put in the White house has a major impact throughout the world. But we have people here who get all their political info from Sean Hannity and ABC news calling the one the world wants and needs a clown. Just my opinion. :)

I've wrote the guy about the problems that the FDA is having, being in bed with the pharmaceutical companies. I get a generic response, he's on the fence about it and tries to sugar coat it, that's a clown to me. This delays life saving natural and any other kind of therapy that threatens the drug companies profits. Denying people that are terminally ill the chance to use a unproven but promising drug. Millions of people are dying right now because of this problem and he won't make a stand.

He just wants to get elected. Using the word clown is being very nice. You could be next or someone you love.
It's a serious problem, I don't blame you if you didn't know about it, not enough people do.

Maybe puppet would be be the proper word.

Swish,

 In the not too distant past, I was what you’d call terminally ill. Though I’m far from a single issue voter, one of the primary reasons I support Senator Obama IS because of his stance on healthcare.

Senator Obama supports genomic research. Which is the study of how a person's genetic makeup affects propensity for disease and response to treatment. In 2006 he introduced Genomics and Personalized Medicine Act, which would increase funding for research on genomics, expand the genomics workforce, provide a tax credit for the development of diagnostic tests that can improve the safety or effectiveness of drugs, and reaffirm the need to protect genetic privacy.

Obama supports the importation of drugs and believes that pharmaceutical companies should only profit when their work producing groundbreaking new drugs. He is well aware that Americans are being exploited by pharmaceutical companies who charge Americans high premiums while selling the drugs for much cheaper overseas. Obama will allow Americans to buy their medicines from other developed countries if the drugs are safe and prices are lower outside the U.S.

Obama  favors reforming Medicare Part D to allow the government to negotiate prices with the pharmaceutical industry The Senator plans to repeal the ban on direct negotiation with drug companies and use the resulting savings, which could be  to further invest in improving health care coverage and quality.

 Obama is well aware that many drug manufacturers are paying generic drug makers not to enter the market so they can keep their monopolies and keep charging Americans incredibly high prices for brand name products. Obama will increase the use of generic medications in the new public plan. He will do this by preventing large drug companies from keeping generics out of market.

Obama also plans to advance the biomedical research field. This is just huge for me.

Obama has also supported various FDA reform bills as a Senator. One in particular was a move toward ending the practice of letting scientists with financial conflicts of interest serve on FDA advisory panels.

I think your continued insistence the Obama is a clown or a puppet has no merit, just as your very first post in this thread didn't. It speaks to the anti-intellectual nature of our society imo. You don’t seem to hold Senator McCain to the same standard which leads me to believe that you must be a biter ex Hillary supporter? A puma member? :Confused:

And Swish don’t take anything I say to you as an attack. It may seem that way but it’s not an attack. I’m addressing your beliefs(and you do have a right to them) and those who share similar beliefs but aren’t willing to share them. So I was really addressing the readers out there in cyber land, when I made some of those more extreme comments in my other posts. I mean you live in a blue state anyway. You can vote for Mickey Mouse for all I care. :rofl_2:










I don't consider any statements you make as an attack, it's just debate.  :)

I'm not saying everything Obama stands for is bad, he has some very valid stances.


My problem with Obama is that he was pushed into this election because of his nice and charming personality, I do like him but not for the job.
His resume is very poor where McCain I know can handle any issues and has plenty of clout to get things done behind closed doors.

The question I have with McCain is what will he do? I don't trust him either, he's slick and can play the people to the max.

But who to vote for, there's only 2 choices.
Between them Obama is completely ridiculous and the McCain guy has all the skills he needs for the job but I'm afraid if he wins he'll throw his platform out the window and do what he wants.

Obama is a eloquent speaker but when I look at him he's like a school boy among men. Just my impression here.

I do like Obama's stance on getting the price of drugs down, this is a platform anyone can jump on to get some votes and look like they are concerned, which he may be. and I definitely like reforming the FDA, where their practices are costing millions of lives, more than the war in Iraq but no one seems to notice.
But he won't beable to get these things done, not alone, and that's his problem, he has to deal with hardened politicians not the "easy to convince" public.

Though he has good stances on some issues I don't think he can get things done, that's my impression.

To see this guy Obama having a chance to be president really makes me ask why some people can't see through this facade.

That's my problem with Obama, he can make some promises and move the public to vote for him but it doesn't mean anything unless he can convince other politicians and make deals with them to get things done. I just don't think he can, at least where it will make a difference.

Offline Pacer

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #174 on: September 25, 2008, 12:30:07 PM »
Well, by the looks of this board, and the number of bumper stickers I see, it looks like the Obama supporters will be happy come November.
But there is one thing you have to keep into account.
There are sharks in the water. Hillary Clinton is still out there, and she just may torpedo Obama's campaign just like she torpedoed John Kerry.

But you live in a blue state. I was in Texas and Arizona recently and I've never seen so many Nobama/pro-McCain bumper stickers in my life. I went to this little pro shop while I was in Texas to pick up some strings and stuff, I had on an Obama t-shirt and the stringer says "He's a Muslim, why would you vote for a Muslim for president in our country?" Some people are hopeless. ..-)

Anyhow the democrats have out registered republicans the past few years and Obama's ground game is pretty massive, but given this country's recent voting record, it would not surprise me if he doesn't win. A lot of people just aren't "comfortable" with Obama.

I'm not really comfortable with Obama either, but it has nothing to do with the Muslim rumors.

I can understand the Muslim statement, a lot of people vote because of race, religion or some other factor they think is important. I think many blacks will vote for Obama because of race, not a good reason in itself but will make up reasons to justify the decision.
Normal behavior for humans is to gravitate toward what is familiar.


So that's it? Just give in to your urges and go with what is familiar? What makes us any different than dogs? Human beings have the unique ability to reason, to rationalize to seek answers,to reflect. We have a level of self-awareness unlike any other species. That self-awareness allows us to question our motives, our intentions, our beliefs, our surroundings. We have the ability to enlighten ourselves, to look deeper into ourselves and others. To prejudge is a natural human condition, yes, it's our survival instinct. We tend to group things(and of course people) together and assign either positive or negative qualities to them. But again we have the ability to look deeper if we choose to do so.

Place an apple on the table and we can choose to see it as just another apple or we can attempt to discern what kind of apple it is. A red delicious, granny smith, big, small, sweet, tart, bland. We can reflect on what makes that particular apple different from other apples simply by choosing to look deeper. It's all about choices. So I'm not going to buy the "it's natural to be a bigot" argument for not voting for a particular candidate. That's a choice, you choose to be a bigot. You choose not to enlighten yourself, you choose to give into your  baser impulses. Don't blame it on your species.
^^^ Oh and I'm not targetting you Swish, I was just making a point. ;-()

I never thought you were, but thanks.
I really don't dislike Obama, but he is a major league clown.
If he does make it he'll have plenty of advisors and PR people to help him, not much different from what we're used to. Just my opinion here and I'm sure someone might think differently.

That's right it's your opinion. I've seen nothing in Obama that even resembles "a major league clown." Not in the least. If anyone has shown themselves to be a clown it would be McCain. You started this whole thread based on a false premise. Maybe if you actually studied the issues on your own and instead of regurgitating O'reillyism's , you might have a basis for calling someone a clown.

The only clowns I know are those working class folks who continue to vote Republican in every election cycle as more jobs are sent overseas, more tax cuts to the wealthy, and everything around them turns to s**t. Those are the clowns who let silly wedge issues drive them to the polls. "I can barely rub two nickles together but I'll be damned if I'll let those gays get married."  Or the classic "I'm just not comfortable voting for a black man." Well I guess they're comfortable not having a job or food on their tables. I hope they can take comfort in that. Those are the clowns. Just keep cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'll be fine financially whether or Obama wins or loses, but it's the people who need him to win the most who sit around and call him a clown. The whole world wants Obama in the White house, because believe it or not, who we put in the White house has a major impact throughout the world. But we have people here who get all their political info from Sean Hannity and ABC news calling the one the world wants and needs a clown. Just my opinion. :)

I've wrote the guy about the problems that the FDA is having, being in bed with the pharmaceutical companies. I get a generic response, he's on the fence about it and tries to sugar coat it, that's a clown to me. This delays life saving natural and any other kind of therapy that threatens the drug companies profits. Denying people that are terminally ill the chance to use a unproven but promising drug. Millions of people are dying right now because of this problem and he won't make a stand.

He just wants to get elected. Using the word clown is being very nice. You could be next or someone you love.
It's a serious problem, I don't blame you if you didn't know about it, not enough people do.

Maybe puppet would be be the proper word.

Swish,

 In the not too distant past, I was what youíd call terminally ill. Though Iím far from a single issue voter, one of the primary reasons I support Senator Obama IS because of his stance on healthcare.

Senator Obama supports genomic research. Which is the study of how a person's genetic makeup affects propensity for disease and response to treatment. In 2006 he introduced Genomics and Personalized Medicine Act, which would increase funding for research on genomics, expand the genomics workforce, provide a tax credit for the development of diagnostic tests that can improve the safety or effectiveness of drugs, and reaffirm the need to protect genetic privacy.

Obama supports the importation of drugs and believes that pharmaceutical companies should only profit when their work producing groundbreaking new drugs. He is well aware that Americans are being exploited by pharmaceutical companies who charge Americans high premiums while selling the drugs for much cheaper overseas. Obama will allow Americans to buy their medicines from other developed countries if the drugs are safe and prices are lower outside the U.S.

Obama  favors reforming Medicare Part D to allow the government to negotiate prices with the pharmaceutical industry The Senator plans to repeal the ban on direct negotiation with drug companies and use the resulting savings, which could be  to further invest in improving health care coverage and quality.

 Obama is well aware that many drug manufacturers are paying generic drug makers not to enter the market so they can keep their monopolies and keep charging Americans incredibly high prices for brand name products. Obama will increase the use of generic medications in the new public plan. He will do this by preventing large drug companies from keeping generics out of market.

Obama also plans to advance the biomedical research field. This is just huge for me.

Obama has also supported various FDA reform bills as a Senator. One in particular was a move toward ending the practice of letting scientists with financial conflicts of interest serve on FDA advisory panels.

I think your continued insistence the Obama is a clown or a puppet has no merit, just as your very first post in this thread didn't. It speaks to the anti-intellectual nature of our society imo. You donít seem to hold Senator McCain to the same standard which leads me to believe that you must be a biter ex Hillary supporter? A puma member? :Confused:

And Swish donít take anything I say to you as an attack. It may seem that way but itís not an attack. Iím addressing your beliefs(and you do have a right to them) and those who share similar beliefs but arenít willing to share them. So I was really addressing the readers out there in cyber land, when I made some of those more extreme comments in my other posts. I mean you live in a blue state anyway. You can vote for Mickey Mouse for all I care. :rofl_2:










I don't consider any statements you make as an attack, it's just debate.  :)

I'm not saying everything Obama stands for is bad, he has some very valid stances.


My problem with Obama is that he was pushed into this election because of his nice and charming personality, I do like him but not for the job.
His resume is very poor where McCain I know can handle any issues and has plenty of clout to get things done behind closed doors.

The question I have with McCain is what will he do? I don't trust him either, he's slick and can play the people to the max.

But who to vote for, there's only 2 choices.
Between them Obama is completely ridiculous and the McCain guy has all the skills he needs for the job but I'm afraid if he wins he'll throw his platform out the window and do what he wants.

Obama is a eloquent speaker but when I look at him he's like a school boy among men. Just my impression here.

I do like Obama's stance on getting the price of drugs down, this is a platform anyone can jump on to get some votes and look like they are concerned, which he may be. and I definitely like reforming the FDA, where their practices are costing millions of lives, more than the war in Iraq but no one seems to notice.
But he won't beable to get these things done, not alone, and that's his problem, he has to deal with hardened politicians not the "easy to convince" public.

Though he has good stances on some issues I don't think he can get things done, that's my impression.

To see this guy Obama having a chance to be president really makes me ask why some people can't see through this facade.

That's my problem with Obama, he can make some promises and move the public to vote for him but it doesn't mean anything unless he can convince other politicians and make deals with them to get things done. I just don't think he can, at least where it will make a difference.

But McCain has been in Washington for 20+ years and hasn't done anything significant. He has also admitted that the economics is not his strength and has been in favor of deregulation throughout his entire career. McCain has an incredibly weak platform, which is why he and Palin do all they can to avoid discussing the issues. Which also explains why he is ducking the debate and trying to dump the VP debate all together. I don't see why you think McCain would get anything done as President, I haven't seen any evidence that would lead anyone to believe that he would get anything done at all. McCain is just a lame duck, a sacrificial lamb.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 12:31:18 PM by Pacer »
Ralphie: I want an official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifle! <br /><br />Mrs. Parker: No, you\'ll shoot your eye out.

Offline Swish

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #175 on: September 25, 2008, 03:54:30 PM »
Well, by the looks of this board, and the number of bumper stickers I see, it looks like the Obama supporters will be happy come November.
But there is one thing you have to keep into account.
There are sharks in the water. Hillary Clinton is still out there, and she just may torpedo Obama's campaign just like she torpedoed John Kerry.

But you live in a blue state. I was in Texas and Arizona recently and I've never seen so many Nobama/pro-McCain bumper stickers in my life. I went to this little pro shop while I was in Texas to pick up some strings and stuff, I had on an Obama t-shirt and the stringer says "He's a Muslim, why would you vote for a Muslim for president in our country?" Some people are hopeless. ..-)

Anyhow the democrats have out registered republicans the past few years and Obama's ground game is pretty massive, but given this country's recent voting record, it would not surprise me if he doesn't win. A lot of people just aren't "comfortable" with Obama.

I'm not really comfortable with Obama either, but it has nothing to do with the Muslim rumors.

I can understand the Muslim statement, a lot of people vote because of race, religion or some other factor they think is important. I think many blacks will vote for Obama because of race, not a good reason in itself but will make up reasons to justify the decision.
Normal behavior for humans is to gravitate toward what is familiar.


So that's it? Just give in to your urges and go with what is familiar? What makes us any different than dogs? Human beings have the unique ability to reason, to rationalize to seek answers,to reflect. We have a level of self-awareness unlike any other species. That self-awareness allows us to question our motives, our intentions, our beliefs, our surroundings. We have the ability to enlighten ourselves, to look deeper into ourselves and others. To prejudge is a natural human condition, yes, it's our survival instinct. We tend to group things(and of course people) together and assign either positive or negative qualities to them. But again we have the ability to look deeper if we choose to do so.

Place an apple on the table and we can choose to see it as just another apple or we can attempt to discern what kind of apple it is. A red delicious, granny smith, big, small, sweet, tart, bland. We can reflect on what makes that particular apple different from other apples simply by choosing to look deeper. It's all about choices. So I'm not going to buy the "it's natural to be a bigot" argument for not voting for a particular candidate. That's a choice, you choose to be a bigot. You choose not to enlighten yourself, you choose to give into your  baser impulses. Don't blame it on your species.
^^^ Oh and I'm not targetting you Swish, I was just making a point. ;-()

I never thought you were, but thanks.
I really don't dislike Obama, but he is a major league clown.
If he does make it he'll have plenty of advisors and PR people to help him, not much different from what we're used to. Just my opinion here and I'm sure someone might think differently.

That's right it's your opinion. I've seen nothing in Obama that even resembles "a major league clown." Not in the least. If anyone has shown themselves to be a clown it would be McCain. You started this whole thread based on a false premise. Maybe if you actually studied the issues on your own and instead of regurgitating O'reillyism's , you might have a basis for calling someone a clown.

The only clowns I know are those working class folks who continue to vote Republican in every election cycle as more jobs are sent overseas, more tax cuts to the wealthy, and everything around them turns to s**t. Those are the clowns who let silly wedge issues drive them to the polls. "I can barely rub two nickles together but I'll be damned if I'll let those gays get married."  Or the classic "I'm just not comfortable voting for a black man." Well I guess they're comfortable not having a job or food on their tables. I hope they can take comfort in that. Those are the clowns. Just keep cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'll be fine financially whether or Obama wins or loses, but it's the people who need him to win the most who sit around and call him a clown. The whole world wants Obama in the White house, because believe it or not, who we put in the White house has a major impact throughout the world. But we have people here who get all their political info from Sean Hannity and ABC news calling the one the world wants and needs a clown. Just my opinion. :)

I've wrote the guy about the problems that the FDA is having, being in bed with the pharmaceutical companies. I get a generic response, he's on the fence about it and tries to sugar coat it, that's a clown to me. This delays life saving natural and any other kind of therapy that threatens the drug companies profits. Denying people that are terminally ill the chance to use a unproven but promising drug. Millions of people are dying right now because of this problem and he won't make a stand.

He just wants to get elected. Using the word clown is being very nice. You could be next or someone you love.
It's a serious problem, I don't blame you if you didn't know about it, not enough people do.

Maybe puppet would be be the proper word.

Swish,

 In the not too distant past, I was what you’d call terminally ill. Though I’m far from a single issue voter, one of the primary reasons I support Senator Obama IS because of his stance on healthcare.

Senator Obama supports genomic research. Which is the study of how a person's genetic makeup affects propensity for disease and response to treatment. In 2006 he introduced Genomics and Personalized Medicine Act, which would increase funding for research on genomics, expand the genomics workforce, provide a tax credit for the development of diagnostic tests that can improve the safety or effectiveness of drugs, and reaffirm the need to protect genetic privacy.

Obama supports the importation of drugs and believes that pharmaceutical companies should only profit when their work producing groundbreaking new drugs. He is well aware that Americans are being exploited by pharmaceutical companies who charge Americans high premiums while selling the drugs for much cheaper overseas. Obama will allow Americans to buy their medicines from other developed countries if the drugs are safe and prices are lower outside the U.S.

Obama  favors reforming Medicare Part D to allow the government to negotiate prices with the pharmaceutical industry The Senator plans to repeal the ban on direct negotiation with drug companies and use the resulting savings, which could be  to further invest in improving health care coverage and quality.

 Obama is well aware that many drug manufacturers are paying generic drug makers not to enter the market so they can keep their monopolies and keep charging Americans incredibly high prices for brand name products. Obama will increase the use of generic medications in the new public plan. He will do this by preventing large drug companies from keeping generics out of market.

Obama also plans to advance the biomedical research field. This is just huge for me.

Obama has also supported various FDA reform bills as a Senator. One in particular was a move toward ending the practice of letting scientists with financial conflicts of interest serve on FDA advisory panels.

I think your continued insistence the Obama is a clown or a puppet has no merit, just as your very first post in this thread didn't. It speaks to the anti-intellectual nature of our society imo. You don’t seem to hold Senator McCain to the same standard which leads me to believe that you must be a biter ex Hillary supporter? A puma member? :Confused:

And Swish don’t take anything I say to you as an attack. It may seem that way but it’s not an attack. I’m addressing your beliefs(and you do have a right to them) and those who share similar beliefs but aren’t willing to share them. So I was really addressing the readers out there in cyber land, when I made some of those more extreme comments in my other posts. I mean you live in a blue state anyway. You can vote for Mickey Mouse for all I care. :rofl_2:










I don't consider any statements you make as an attack, it's just debate.  :)

I'm not saying everything Obama stands for is bad, he has some very valid stances.


My problem with Obama is that he was pushed into this election because of his nice and charming personality, I do like him but not for the job.
His resume is very poor where McCain I know can handle any issues and has plenty of clout to get things done behind closed doors.

The question I have with McCain is what will he do? I don't trust him either, he's slick and can play the people to the max.

But who to vote for, there's only 2 choices.
Between them Obama is completely ridiculous and the McCain guy has all the skills he needs for the job but I'm afraid if he wins he'll throw his platform out the window and do what he wants.

Obama is a eloquent speaker but when I look at him he's like a school boy among men. Just my impression here.

I do like Obama's stance on getting the price of drugs down, this is a platform anyone can jump on to get some votes and look like they are concerned, which he may be. and I definitely like reforming the FDA, where their practices are costing millions of lives, more than the war in Iraq but no one seems to notice.
But he won't beable to get these things done, not alone, and that's his problem, he has to deal with hardened politicians not the "easy to convince" public.

Though he has good stances on some issues I don't think he can get things done, that's my impression.

To see this guy Obama having a chance to be president really makes me ask why some people can't see through this facade.

That's my problem with Obama, he can make some promises and move the public to vote for him but it doesn't mean anything unless he can convince other politicians and make deals with them to get things done. I just don't think he can, at least where it will make a difference.

But McCain has been in Washington for 20+ years and hasn't done anything significant. He has also admitted that the economics is not his strength and has been in favor of deregulation throughout his entire career. McCain has an incredibly weak platform, which is why he and Palin do all they can to avoid discussing the issues. Which also explains why he is ducking the debate and trying to dump the VP debate all together. I don't see why you think McCain would get anything done as President, I haven't seen any evidence that would lead anyone to believe that he would get anything done at all. McCain is just a lame duck, a sacrificial lamb.

If you look at Obama's experience he has only been a senator since 2004. This isn't the kind of experience that's needed for president. At least Hillary has some solid experience from being the first lady.

McCain can't duck these debates forever, he'll have to address his deficiences eventually.

Though both candidates have some weaknesses, they have people around them that can help. The economy for example, either one can surround themselves and take advice with whom they want and that goes with many areas.

Obama has been built up from almost nothing, pushed along because the Dems have nobody else. 2 years ago people would laugh at the idea of Obama running, an office joke.
He's where he's at because his party's pushed him on stage. He didn't do anything to stand out politically on his own. He made a few good speaches and that's about it.

If McCain has been on the capitol for so many years then he has a lot of connections and knows how things work, you can't compare only a few years to that.




Offline Swish

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #176 on: September 25, 2008, 06:34:46 PM »
Well, by the looks of this board, and the number of bumper stickers I see, it looks like the Obama supporters will be happy come November.
But there is one thing you have to keep into account.
There are sharks in the water. Hillary Clinton is still out there, and she just may torpedo Obama's campaign just like she torpedoed John Kerry.

But you live in a blue state. I was in Texas and Arizona recently and I've never seen so many Nobama/pro-McCain bumper stickers in my life. I went to this little pro shop while I was in Texas to pick up some strings and stuff, I had on an Obama t-shirt and the stringer says "He's a Muslim, why would you vote for a Muslim for president in our country?" Some people are hopeless. ..-)

Anyhow the democrats have out registered republicans the past few years and Obama's ground game is pretty massive, but given this country's recent voting record, it would not surprise me if he doesn't win. A lot of people just aren't "comfortable" with Obama.

I'm not really comfortable with Obama either, but it has nothing to do with the Muslim rumors.

I can understand the Muslim statement, a lot of people vote because of race, religion or some other factor they think is important. I think many blacks will vote for Obama because of race, not a good reason in itself but will make up reasons to justify the decision.
Normal behavior for humans is to gravitate toward what is familiar.


So that's it? Just give in to your urges and go with what is familiar? What makes us any different than dogs? Human beings have the unique ability to reason, to rationalize to seek answers,to reflect. We have a level of self-awareness unlike any other species. That self-awareness allows us to question our motives, our intentions, our beliefs, our surroundings. We have the ability to enlighten ourselves, to look deeper into ourselves and others. To prejudge is a natural human condition, yes, it's our survival instinct. We tend to group things(and of course people) together and assign either positive or negative qualities to them. But again we have the ability to look deeper if we choose to do so.

Place an apple on the table and we can choose to see it as just another apple or we can attempt to discern what kind of apple it is. A red delicious, granny smith, big, small, sweet, tart, bland. We can reflect on what makes that particular apple different from other apples simply by choosing to look deeper. It's all about choices. So I'm not going to buy the "it's natural to be a bigot" argument for not voting for a particular candidate. That's a choice, you choose to be a bigot. You choose not to enlighten yourself, you choose to give into your  baser impulses. Don't blame it on your species.

Just picked up on this, a bad reply and you didn't properly read the post
Well, by the looks of this board, and the number of bumper stickers I see, it looks like the Obama supporters will be happy come November.
But there is one thing you have to keep into account.
There are sharks in the water. Hillary Clinton is still out there, and she just may torpedo Obama's campaign just like she torpedoed John Kerry.

But you live in a blue state. I was in Texas and Arizona recently and I've never seen so many Nobama/pro-McCain bumper stickers in my life. I went to this little pro shop while I was in Texas to pick up some strings and stuff, I had on an Obama t-shirt and the stringer says "He's a Muslim, why would you vote for a Muslim for president in our country?" Some people are hopeless. ..-)

Anyhow the democrats have out registered republicans the past few years and Obama's ground game is pretty massive, but given this country's recent voting record, it would not surprise me if he doesn't win. A lot of people just aren't "comfortable" with Obama.

I'm not really comfortable with Obama either, but it has nothing to do with the Muslim rumors.

I can understand the Muslim statement, a lot of people vote because of race, religion or some other factor they think is important. I think many blacks will vote for Obama because of race, not a good reason in itself but will make up reasons to justify the decision.
Normal behavior for humans is to gravitate toward what is familiar.


So that's it? Just give in to your urges and go with what is familiar? What makes us any different than dogs? Human beings have the unique ability to reason, to rationalize to seek answers,to reflect. We have a level of self-awareness unlike any other species. That self-awareness allows us to question our motives, our intentions, our beliefs, our surroundings. We have the ability to enlighten ourselves, to look deeper into ourselves and others. To prejudge is a natural human condition, yes, it's our survival instinct. We tend to group things(and of course people) together and assign either positive or negative qualities to them. But again we have the ability to look deeper if we choose to do so.

Place an apple on the table and we can choose to see it as just another apple or we can attempt to discern what kind of apple it is. A red delicious, granny smith, big, small, sweet, tart, bland. We can reflect on what makes that particular apple different from other apples simply by choosing to look deeper. It's all about choices. So I'm not going to buy the "it's natural to be a bigot" argument for not voting for a particular candidate. That's a choice, you choose to be a bigot. You choose not to enlighten yourself, you choose to give into your  baser impulses. Don't blame it on your species.

Just saw this one, school is in session....

Yes, I stand by my statements about chosing what is famaliar. Do you see teenagers gravitate towards adults or other teenagers? The list goes on and on. This is normal human behavior.
Show me where I'm wrong about that.

You say I chose not to enlighten myself, another bad assumption on your part. No basis at all. Never said that, think before you post!!!

I said nothing about just giving into your urges, though many people do.
You made that one up. Not good and does nothing for your post.

Just a bad post, too many wrong assumptions and no substance. You probably know that by now.



Offline Pacer

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #177 on: September 25, 2008, 08:26:30 PM »
Swish,

Iím sorry but you really need to tune in, youĎre flailing all over the place. 2 years ago the press and members of the Democratic party were practically hounding Senator Obama to throw his hat into the race for 2008. So youíre totally off base ÖÖ again.

Next, Obama has served in the Illinois state legislature for 8 years. If Obama becomes President, he will have spent more time serving as a state legislator than anyone who has occupied the White House since Abraham Lincoln. He has also been a senator for the past 4 years. He is a graduate of Columbia university and Harvard law and served as President of the Harvard Law review(this alone should prove that he is no dummy). Before he became involved in politics, he was a community organizer, a civil rights attorney and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago.


Obama is one of the few Senators to serve on three of the four Senate Committees dealing with foreign policy issues including the Foreign Relations; Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs; and Veterans' Affairs committees and he is the Chair of the Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Relations which is responsible fore U.S. relations with European countries, the European Union, and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. So cut the crap Swish.

Please do not continue to dredge up Hillary Clintonís campaign failures. Aside from the Bosnia fiasco the most ridiculous claim she made which caused her to lose any ounce of credibility, was her insistence that her years as first lady prepared her for the role of commander and chief. Hillary did nothing significant as first lady and her White House files prove that. Lying in bed with the President doesnít prepare you for the Presidency( even if it did she still wouldnĎt be qualified). If I were a woman that would have been most offensive. Itís called sleeping your way to the top, talk about setting back the movement. According to the logic of her followers(you) Laura Bush is prepared to be the President of the United States. After all she is a two-term first lady. Bush 2012!

Also by your logic any bum off the street is fit for the Presidency. You seem to believe that the President doesnít have to know anything at all, itís all about their advisors. Well, I hate to break it to you, but while the President doesnít have to be an economic expert, he/she needs to at least have workable knowledge of the subject to even know what advise to accept as legitimate and McCain has admitted that he doesnĎt. This is why were  in the mess weíre in now, because we have a President that doesnít know crap.


You also seem to think the length of time served in Washington somehow translates into competence.  Well, if thatís the case write in Senator Robert Byrdís  name on your Presidential ballot, after all he is the longest serving Senator in US history. 

John McCain is at least 25 years older than Senator Obama and has served in Washington twice as along with nothing much to show for it, other than to show that heĎs been part of the problem. Which is why his running as a war hero rather than based on his Senate record. If he knows how things work and has all these connections as you say, why hasnít he done anything major? What would make you think heíd be a better President than he has been a Senator?  I  mean the core of his own party grudgingly supports him for a reason.

Just recently McCain has shunned some of our NATO allies, his VP talked about possible war with Russia, he supported bailing out AIG then he didnít, he says that he feels the fundamentals of our economy are strong, heís ducking debates and never talks about the issues. Yet according to you, he will get things done. Why? Because heís been in Washington longer? Those two can get us all killed, but since McCain has been in Washington longer itís all good. Swish, I think you should learn about the candidates, study their policies and backgrounds( much better) otherwise this conversation is pointless and there is no reason to continue. Itís times like these when I believe that being 18 shouldnít be the only requirement to vote in this country. People should know where the candidates stand and what their policies mean in the grand scheme of things before they are allowed to vote IMO.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 08:40:03 PM by Pacer »
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Offline Pacer

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #178 on: September 25, 2008, 08:38:07 PM »
Well, by the looks of this board, and the number of bumper stickers I see, it looks like the Obama supporters will be happy come November.
But there is one thing you have to keep into account.
There are sharks in the water. Hillary Clinton is still out there, and she just may torpedo Obama's campaign just like she torpedoed John Kerry.

But you live in a blue state. I was in Texas and Arizona recently and I've never seen so many Nobama/pro-McCain bumper stickers in my life. I went to this little pro shop while I was in Texas to pick up some strings and stuff, I had on an Obama t-shirt and the stringer says "He's a Muslim, why would you vote for a Muslim for president in our country?" Some people are hopeless. ..-)

Anyhow the democrats have out registered republicans the past few years and Obama's ground game is pretty massive, but given this country's recent voting record, it would not surprise me if he doesn't win. A lot of people just aren't "comfortable" with Obama.

I'm not really comfortable with Obama either, but it has nothing to do with the Muslim rumors.

I can understand the Muslim statement, a lot of people vote because of race, religion or some other factor they think is important. I think many blacks will vote for Obama because of race, not a good reason in itself but will make up reasons to justify the decision.
Normal behavior for humans is to gravitate toward what is familiar.


So that's it? Just give in to your urges and go with what is familiar? What makes us any different than dogs? Human beings have the unique ability to reason, to rationalize to seek answers,to reflect. We have a level of self-awareness unlike any other species. That self-awareness allows us to question our motives, our intentions, our beliefs, our surroundings. We have the ability to enlighten ourselves, to look deeper into ourselves and others. To prejudge is a natural human condition, yes, it's our survival instinct. We tend to group things(and of course people) together and assign either positive or negative qualities to them. But again we have the ability to look deeper if we choose to do so.

Place an apple on the table and we can choose to see it as just another apple or we can attempt to discern what kind of apple it is. A red delicious, granny smith, big, small, sweet, tart, bland. We can reflect on what makes that particular apple different from other apples simply by choosing to look deeper. It's all about choices. So I'm not going to buy the "it's natural to be a bigot" argument for not voting for a particular candidate. That's a choice, you choose to be a bigot. You choose not to enlighten yourself, you choose to give into your  baser impulses. Don't blame it on your species.

Just picked up on this, a bad reply and you didn't properly read the post
Well, by the looks of this board, and the number of bumper stickers I see, it looks like the Obama supporters will be happy come November.
But there is one thing you have to keep into account.
There are sharks in the water. Hillary Clinton is still out there, and she just may torpedo Obama's campaign just like she torpedoed John Kerry.

But you live in a blue state. I was in Texas and Arizona recently and I've never seen so many Nobama/pro-McCain bumper stickers in my life. I went to this little pro shop while I was in Texas to pick up some strings and stuff, I had on an Obama t-shirt and the stringer says "He's a Muslim, why would you vote for a Muslim for president in our country?" Some people are hopeless. ..-)

Anyhow the democrats have out registered republicans the past few years and Obama's ground game is pretty massive, but given this country's recent voting record, it would not surprise me if he doesn't win. A lot of people just aren't "comfortable" with Obama.

I'm not really comfortable with Obama either, but it has nothing to do with the Muslim rumors.

I can understand the Muslim statement, a lot of people vote because of race, religion or some other factor they think is important. I think many blacks will vote for Obama because of race, not a good reason in itself but will make up reasons to justify the decision.
Normal behavior for humans is to gravitate toward what is familiar.


So that's it? Just give in to your urges and go with what is familiar? What makes us any different than dogs? Human beings have the unique ability to reason, to rationalize to seek answers,to reflect. We have a level of self-awareness unlike any other species. That self-awareness allows us to question our motives, our intentions, our beliefs, our surroundings. We have the ability to enlighten ourselves, to look deeper into ourselves and others. To prejudge is a natural human condition, yes, it's our survival instinct. We tend to group things(and of course people) together and assign either positive or negative qualities to them. But again we have the ability to look deeper if we choose to do so.

Place an apple on the table and we can choose to see it as just another apple or we can attempt to discern what kind of apple it is. A red delicious, granny smith, big, small, sweet, tart, bland. We can reflect on what makes that particular apple different from other apples simply by choosing to look deeper. It's all about choices. So I'm not going to buy the "it's natural to be a bigot" argument for not voting for a particular candidate. That's a choice, you choose to be a bigot. You choose not to enlighten yourself, you choose to give into your  baser impulses. Don't blame it on your species.

Just saw this one, school is in session....

Yes, I stand by my statements about chosing what is famaliar. Do you see teenagers gravitate towards adults or other teenagers? The list goes on and on. This is normal human behavior.
Show me where I'm wrong about that.

You say I chose not to enlighten myself, another bad assumption on your part. No basis at all. Never said that, think before you post!!!

I said nothing about just giving into your urges, though many people do.
You made that one up. Not good and does nothing for your post.

Just a bad post, too many wrong assumptions and no substance. You probably know that by now.




Swish,

I doubt that you really want to head in this direction with me, so my advice to you, is that YOU should think before YOU post, seriously.

Second, either you have an issue with comprehension or you're bored and looking for a conflict, but I doubt this was the first time you read that post. Since you read it right before you read the post where I stated I was NOT targetting you specifically in that post(you know the one you replied to, don't try to play me Swish), I was challenging that particular ideology. You are the last person in this thread who should talk about an argument having no basis. So again, Swish think first.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 08:49:30 PM by Pacer »
Ralphie: I want an official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifle! <br /><br />Mrs. Parker: No, you\'ll shoot your eye out.

Offline Swish

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Re: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie
« Reply #179 on: September 25, 2008, 08:56:02 PM »
Swish,

I’m sorry but you really need to tune in, you‘re flailing all over the place. 2 years ago the press and members of the Democratic party were practically hounding Senator Obama to throw his hat into the race for 2008. So you’re totally off base …… again.

Next, Obama has served in the Illinois state legislature for 8 years. If Obama becomes President, he will have spent more time serving as a state legislator than anyone who has occupied the White House since Abraham Lincoln. He has also been a senator for the past 4 years. He is a graduate of Columbia university and Harvard law and served as President of the Harvard Law review(this alone should prove that he is no dummy). Before he became involved in politics, he was a community organizer, a civil rights attorney and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago.


Obama is one of the few Senators to serve on three of the four Senate Committees dealing with foreign policy issues including the Foreign Relations; Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs; and Veterans' Affairs committees and he is the Chair of the Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Relations which is responsible fore U.S. relations with European countries, the European Union, and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. So cut the crap Swish.

Please do not continue to dredge up Hillary Clinton’s campaign failures. Aside from the Bosnia fiasco the most ridiculous claim she made which caused her to lose any ounce of credibility, was her insistence that her years as first lady prepared her for the role of commander and chief. Hillary did nothing significant as first lady and her White House files prove that. Lying in bed with the President doesn’t prepare you for the Presidency( even if it did she still wouldn‘t be qualified). If I were a woman that would have been most offensive. It’s called sleeping your way to the top, talk about setting back the movement. According to the logic of her followers(you) Laura Bush is prepared to be the President of the United States. After all she is a two-term first lady. Bush 2012!

Also by your logic any bum off the street is fit for the Presidency. You seem to believe that the President doesn’t have to know anything at all, it’s all about their advisors. Well, I hate to break it to you, but while the President doesn’t have to be an economic expert, he/she needs to at least have workable knowledge of the subject to even know what advise to accept as legitimate and McCain has admitted that he doesn‘t. This is why were  in the mess we’re in now, because we have a President that doesn’t know crap.


You also seem to think the length of time served in Washington somehow translates into competence.  Well, if that’s the case write in Senator Robert Byrd’s  name on your Presidential ballot, after all he is the longest serving Senator in US history. 

John McCain is at least 25 years older than Senator Obama and has served in Washington twice as along with nothing much to show for it, other than to show that he‘s been part of the problem. Which is why his running as a war hero rather than based on his Senate record. If he knows how things work and has all these connections as you say, why hasn’t he done anything major? What would make you think he’d be a better President than he has been a Senator?  I  mean the core of his own party grudgingly supports him for a reason.

Just recently McCain has shunned some of our NATO allies, his VP talked about possible war with Russia, he supported bailing out AIG then he didn’t, he says that he feels the fundamentals of our economy are strong, he’s ducking debates and never talks about the issues. Yet according to you, he will get things done. Why? Because he’s been in Washington longer? Those two can get us all killed, but since McCain has been in Washington longer it’s all good. Swish, I think you should learn about the candidates, study their policies and backgrounds( much better) otherwise this conversation is pointless and there is no reason to continue. It’s times like these when I believe that being 18 shouldn’t be the only requirement to vote in this country. People should know where the candidates stand and what their policies mean in the grand scheme of things before they are allowed vote IMO.



It's these kind of clueless statements that make me not want to respond, it's not close to being true. Many touted Clinton for his great economy and put Bush down because the economy turned. It's silly. And wrong.

If your in high school I'll give you a break though.

Quote
Please do not continue to dredge up Hillary Clinton’s campaign failures
I brought up Hillary as an example and only once, but for her experience, I said nothing about her failures. Your making up things again.

You've done this in previous posts and are not ready for a serious discussion. But there are some areas that you do OK in.  :)

Anybody can say what people have done as you have in your posts, it doesn't mean you have any idea who's qualified.

I don't care to post about myself and what I need, only the candidates. Be objective and not concentrate on the poster, it won't derail me if that's what your trying to do.

You never answered or chimed in on people gravitating toward what is famaliar, you ignored my post and continued posting what you want??? Answer the question or try to anyway.