Topic: Obama Offers a Beautifully Packaged Lie

[monstertruck]

Thanks for poking me with a stick Babble.
I finally took a moment to check out Joe The Plumber.
Until today I hadn't seen or actually heard any of his interviews.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-spyros/joe-the-plumber-obama-ori_b_135125.html

The conclusion I draw from watching this is that Obama is in favor of "Trickle up economics".
At 1:50 in the vid Obama says that an economy that is good from the bottom up will provide more
customers for Joe The Plumber.  It's been my experience that folks on the lower end of the income scale
are more likely to use scabs or under-the-table workers whereas folks on the higher end of the scale tend to contract with
business owners such as myself.  I think Obama is out of touch with reality here.

Word from the street.

[monstertruck]

One thing to note in the interview is Obama's attitude.
He seems sincere and and very articulate.

Could you imagine President Bush having such a discussion?

[Babblelot]

    

I love poking my stick at you, monster. You never disappoint! That was grand, mate!!!   You, too, have got an inner victim, holmes. It rears its head during discussions of taxes, taxes you don't want to pay, because... 



During our Libertarian discussion, I talked about the conservatives/libertarian/Randian penchant for floating out "Joe the Plumber" maxims.

Thank you for offering this utterly insincere steaming pile of horsie manure. It’s a perfectly packaged Randian/Libertarian slogan wrapped around an empty threat. If you CHOOSE to work less, you do so with the comfort and peace of mind that comes with knowing that you are your own master. Today, as in feudal societies, slogans are doublespeak that hide social truths which are the exact opposite of their rhetorical claims. I give you the “Patriot Act”.

Here's the "Joe the Plumber" archetype: identify the very rich--that 5% of the population that makes +$250K/year--with the face of regular Joe. Joe is actually better off under Obama's tax structure than McCain'w, but that's not the point. There's no longer a connection between "Joe the Plumber" and the interview. The McCain campaign's claim was that "you're all 'Joe the Plumber'": I see "Sally the School Teacher", "Bob the Butcher", "Gary the Garbageman", "Carl the Cop"--litterally, this is what they did on the stump. Every poop SOB was going to have their taxes raised under the Obama tax plan.

Thank you for playing.

[monstertruck]

   

I love poking my stick at you, monster. You never disappoint! That was grand, mate!!!   You, too, have got an inner victim, holmes. It rears its head during discussions of taxes, taxes you don't want to pay, because... 

You hear what you want to hear.
You couldn't be more mistaken about me.

[monstertruck]

http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf

Very interesting!

[monstertruck]

   

I love poking my stick at you, monster. You never disappoint! That was grand, mate!!!   You, too, have got an inner victim, holmes. It rears its head during discussions of taxes, taxes you don't want to pay, because... 



During our Libertarian discussion, I talked about the conservatives/libertarian/Randian penchant for floating out "Joe the Plumber" maxims.

Thank you for offering this utterly insincere steaming pile of horsie manure. It’s a perfectly packaged Randian/Libertarian slogan wrapped around an empty threat. If you CHOOSE to work less, you do so with the comfort and peace of mind that comes with knowing that you are your own master. Today, as in feudal societies, slogans are doublespeak that hide social truths which are the exact opposite of their rhetorical claims. I give you the “Patriot Act”.

Here's the "Joe the Plumber" archetype: identify the very rich--that 5% of the population that makes +$250K/year--with the face of regular Joe. Joe is actually better off under Obama's tax structure than McCain'w, but that's not the point. There's no longer a connection between "Joe the Plumber" and the interview. The McCain campaign's claim was that "you're all 'Joe the Plumber'": I see "Sally the School Teacher", "Bob the Butcher", "Gary the Garbageman", "Carl the Cop"--litterally, this is what they did on the stump. Every poop SOB was going to have their taxes raised under the Obama tax plan.

Thank you for playing.

The redistribution of wealth by a government in any form is theft.

The Seductive Lure of Socialism from The Law

by Frederick Bastiat


Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education, and morality throughout the nation.

This is the seductive lure of socialism. And I repeat again: These two uses of the law are in direct contradiction to each other. We must choose between them. A citizen cannot at the same time be free and not free.

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.

[jeffrx]

Joe the Plumber used to be on welfare!  He should be ashamed of himself based on his own criteria for moving the nation forward.  What a hypocrite!

[huntingyou]

so funny to read people's view............Obama/Republican fear mongering and hate tactics was the easiest choice any american could have in this election......too sad we still have 46% of the country in the short yellow bus!

[huntingyou]

   

I love poking my stick at you, monster. You never disappoint! That was grand, mate!!!   You, too, have got an inner victim, holmes. It rears its head during discussions of taxes, taxes you don't want to pay, because... 



During our Libertarian discussion, I talked about the conservatives/libertarian/Randian penchant for floating out "Joe the Plumber" maxims.

Thank you for offering this utterly insincere steaming pile of horsie manure. It’s a perfectly packaged Randian/Libertarian slogan wrapped around an empty threat. If you CHOOSE to work less, you do so with the comfort and peace of mind that comes with knowing that you are your own master. Today, as in feudal societies, slogans are doublespeak that hide social truths which are the exact opposite of their rhetorical claims. I give you the “Patriot Act”.

Here's the "Joe the Plumber" archetype: identify the very rich--that 5% of the population that makes +$250K/year--with the face of regular Joe. Joe is actually better off under Obama's tax structure than McCain'w, but that's not the point. There's no longer a connection between "Joe the Plumber" and the interview. The McCain campaign's claim was that "you're all 'Joe the Plumber'": I see "Sally the School Teacher", "Bob the Butcher", "Gary the Garbageman", "Carl the Cop"--litterally, this is what they did on the stump. Every poop SOB was going to have their taxes raised under the Obama tax plan.

Thank you for playing.

The redistribution of wealth by a government in any form is theft.

The Seductive Lure of Socialism from The Law

by Frederick Bastiat


Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education, and morality throughout the nation.

This is the seductive lure of socialism. And I repeat again: These two uses of the law are in direct contradiction to each other. We must choose between them. A citizen cannot at the same time be free and not free.

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.

nice reading there......do you understand socialism?

What would you say about the progressive tax system, Social Security, Medicare, Public Schools, Pell Grants, gas tax for infranstructure and so on and so on..........I guess it was socialism to extend equal rights to all citizens;

out of all the system; none is good in itself and certainly capitalism is the worse kind IF left uncheck by the socialist PUBLIC. My guess is some smart Americans did read Karl Marx and learned how to avoid his predictions.....sadly capitalism is a monster that feeds itself hence the nation moving to the left YET again to avoid catastrophe.

The final goal of humanity is to better itself not to better the top 2 percent on the backs of the working class because at the end we all are slaves of those who control the means of productions.

[monstertruck]

The redistribution of wealth by a government in any form is theft.

The Seductive Lure of Socialism from The Law

by Frederick Bastiat


Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education, and morality throughout the nation.

This is the seductive lure of socialism. And I repeat again: These two uses of the law are in direct contradiction to each other. We must choose between them. A citizen cannot at the same time be free and not free.

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.

nice reading there......do you understand socialism?

What would you say about the progressive tax system, Social Security, Medicare, Public Schools, Pell Grants, gas tax for infranstructure and so on and so on..........I guess it was socialism to extend equal rights to all citizens;

out of all the system; none is good in itself and certainly capitalism is the worse kind IF left uncheck by the socialist PUBLIC. My guess is some smart Americans did read Karl Marx and learned how to avoid his predictions.....sadly capitalism is a monster that feeds itself hence the nation moving to the left YET again to avoid catastrophe.

The final goal of humanity is to better itself not to better the top 2 percent on the backs of the working class because at the end we all are slaves of those who control the means of productions.
[/quote]I see you have been seduced.

Yes, the control of the collective over the individual, exactly as you've stated.

The denigration of opposing views through personal attacks and sel-aggrandisement is a poor substitute for intelligent discussion.
And you're supposed to be one of the smart ones???

Here's a good one for ya:

The Barack Obama in me popped out during the recent election, I voted 'present'!

[huntingyou]

The redistribution of wealth by a government in any form is theft.

The Seductive Lure of Socialism from The Law

by Frederick Bastiat


Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education, and morality throughout the nation.

This is the seductive lure of socialism. And I repeat again: These two uses of the law are in direct contradiction to each other. We must choose between them. A citizen cannot at the same time be free and not free.

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.

nice reading there......do you understand socialism?

What would you say about the progressive tax system, Social Security, Medicare, Public Schools, Pell Grants, gas tax for infranstructure and so on and so on..........I guess it was socialism to extend equal rights to all citizens;

out of all the system; none is good in itself and certainly capitalism is the worse kind IF left unchecked by the socialist PUBLIC. My guess is some smart Americans did read Karl Marx and learned how to avoid his predictions.....sadly capitalism is a monster that feeds itself hence the nation moving to the left YET again to avoid catastrophe.

The final goal of humanity is to better itself not to better the top 2 percent on the backs of the working class because at the end we all are slaves of those who control the means of productions.

I see you have been seduced.

Yes, the control of the collective over the individual, exactly as you've stated.

The denigration of opposing views through personal attacks and sel-aggrandisement is a poor substitute for intelligent discussion.
And you're supposed to be one of the smart ones???

Here's a good one for ya:

The Barack Obama in me popped out during the recent election, I voted 'present'!




[/quote]

Do you live in a society made of collective CONNECTED individuals or do you live by yourself and your actions have no impact on your neighbor whatsoever?  Seduce? The only seduction is what capitalism without check and balance do to individuals that disregard the well being of the society to feed their greed.........look at the banking and lending industry during this last 8 years and tell me those big guys at Morgan Stanley, Fanie Mae and company exercise their "freedom" to oppress and steal from the working class.

What insult? I just asked you a question since I find very interesting that you bring a quote from a book discrediting socialism without understanding our system which is socialist in nature.

Why do you get hurt? Did I called you a name? I can bring quotes from Niche and Marx that look and sound all cute but do I understand them? That was my question directed at you since it seems you are a very capable individual.

People who discredit socialism in this country don't realize our NATION practice socialism to mitigate the damages of capitalism and to protect society from collapsing in itself when the working class revel against those who control the means of production. Back in the 30s conservative called Social Security socialism and opposed it.......what about unions that fought against child labor and worker endangerment? Conservative though this was a Communist agenda and that the market should correct itself.

Are we just delaying the inevitable predictions of Marx? Why the European Union and other countries SURPASS the US in standard of living and education despite being "socialists" nations?

Fear mongering lost in Nov4 as far as I'm concern..................what would you do when Obama improves the Health Care system by providing insurance to 48 millions of Americans who don't have it and it's the main cause for the ever increasing premiums and medical cost on those who have it? What would you say when the Insurance industry is stop dead on it's track from making the health business another tool for capitalism instead of actually providing health to those that are sick?

Our health system is a disgrace and an incredible weight on our economic system......and that's what happened when you look for unchecked and unregulated profits instead of actually serving the sick.

Is this socialism or actually improving our standard of living? We know how capitalists think..what about conservatives? Didn't they learned their lesson in the 60s to be in the wrong side of history?

[monstertruck]

The redistribution of wealth by a government in any form is theft.

The Seductive Lure of Socialism from The Law

by Frederick Bastiat


Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education, and morality throughout the nation.

This is the seductive lure of socialism. And I repeat again: These two uses of the law are in direct contradiction to each other. We must choose between them. A citizen cannot at the same time be free and not free.

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.

nice reading there......do you understand socialism?

What would you say about the progressive tax system, Social Security, Medicare, Public Schools, Pell Grants, gas tax for infranstructure and so on and so on..........I guess it was socialism to extend equal rights to all citizens;

out of all the system; none is good in itself and certainly capitalism is the worse kind IF left unchecked by the socialist PUBLIC. My guess is some smart Americans did read Karl Marx and learned how to avoid his predictions.....sadly capitalism is a monster that feeds itself hence the nation moving to the left YET again to avoid catastrophe.

The final goal of humanity is to better itself not to better the top 2 percent on the backs of the working class because at the end we all are slaves of those who control the means of productions.

I see you have been seduced.

Yes, the control of the collective over the individual, exactly as you've stated.

The denigration of opposing views through personal attacks and sel-aggrandisement is a poor substitute for intelligent discussion.
And you're supposed to be one of the smart ones???

Here's a good one for ya:

The Barack Obama in me popped out during the recent election, I voted 'present'!

blahblahblah

What insult?

Why do you get hurt? Did I called you a name?....blahblahblah

Does short yellow bus ring a bell?

Why don't you fly on down to Cuba and live the 'socialist dream'?
Never been there?  I have.  You're gonna love it!!!
Please send me a postcard illustrating the propserity down there generated by those hard working collectivists!

People are dying to get out of there, are you dying to get in?  Nah, I didn't think so kid.

[huntingyou]

The redistribution of wealth by a government in any form is theft.

The Seductive Lure of Socialism from The Law

by Frederick Bastiat


Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education, and morality throughout the nation.

This is the seductive lure of socialism. And I repeat again: These two uses of the law are in direct contradiction to each other. We must choose between them. A citizen cannot at the same time be free and not free.

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.

nice reading there......do you understand socialism?

What would you say about the progressive tax system, Social Security, Medicare, Public Schools, Pell Grants, gas tax for infranstructure and so on and so on..........I guess it was socialism to extend equal rights to all citizens;

out of all the system; none is good in itself and certainly capitalism is the worse kind IF left unchecked by the socialist PUBLIC. My guess is some smart Americans did read Karl Marx and learned how to avoid his predictions.....sadly capitalism is a monster that feeds itself hence the nation moving to the left YET again to avoid catastrophe.

The final goal of humanity is to better itself not to better the top 2 percent on the backs of the working class because at the end we all are slaves of those who control the means of productions.

I see you have been seduced.

Yes, the control of the collective over the individual, exactly as you've stated.

The denigration of opposing views through personal attacks and sel-aggrandisement is a poor substitute for intelligent discussion.
And you're supposed to be one of the smart ones???

Here's a good one for ya:

The Barack Obama in me popped out during the recent election, I voted 'present'!

blahblahblah

What insult?

Why do you get hurt? Did I called you a name?....blahblahblah

Does short yellow bus ring a bell?

Why don't you fly on down to Cuba and live the 'socialist dream'?
Never been there?  I have.  You're gonna love it!!!
Please send me a postcard illustrating the propserity down there generated by those hard working collectivists!

People are dying to get out of there, are you dying to get in?  Nah, I didn't think so kid.

What did I said tha made you jump to such conclusions? Did I said Cuba......why not Japan or Korea?

socialist dream? hardly.....like i said before, no system or idealogy in itself is good......only a pragmatic approach to the problem while taking the best ideas from different systems could lead us to a better place. Someway, that's how the US has done through it's short history...from the new society to the new deal.....looking only inwards for solutions is not the answer......

It's clear you have no answer or any argument that doesn't include the word "Me" in it. instead of looking out for the seductive Lure of Socialism...you should be paying attention to the seductive lure of Capitalism.


Blah,blah, blah is the only respond left to people who are defeated in the battle of ideas. Yellow bus? That's why I see when I read your post about "keeping" my money blah blah blah  ....such shallow used for the your intellectual capacity leave you wanting my friend!

[monstertruck]

What did I said tha made you jump to such conclusions? Did I said Cuba......why not Japan or Korea?

socialist dream? hardly.....like i said before, no system or idealogy in itself is good......only a pragmatic approach to the problem while taking the best ideas from different systems could lead us to a better place. Someway, that's how the US has done through it's short history...from the new society to the new deal.....looking only inwards for solutions is not the answer......

It's clear you have no answer or any argument that doesn't include the word "Me" in it. instead of looking out for the seductive Lure of Socialism...you should be paying attention to the seductive lure of Capitalism.


Blah,blah, blah is the only respond left to people who are defeated in the battle of ideas. Yellow bus? That's why I see when I read your post about "keeping" my money blah blah blah  ....such shallow used for the your intellectual capacity leave you wanting my friend!

1.  So what is your personal philosophy which allows you to borrow ideas from all areas?
Let's see, I'll take a few capitalist ideas, mix it with some socialist policies, and then throw in a bit of dictatorship for good measure....

I agree that our country is a mix of republic and democracy.  But the U.S. Constituition is clearly a document intended to secure the rights of the individual and minorities.

I shall discontinue our discussion if you insist on continuing with the personal attacks.
Especially the one where you seem to think I'm your friend.   Why, I hardly even know you...

[huntingyou]

What did I said tha made you jump to such conclusions? Did I said Cuba......why not Japan or Korea?

socialist dream? hardly.....like i said before, no system or idealogy in itself is good......only a pragmatic approach to the problem while taking the best ideas from different systems could lead us to a better place. Someway, that's how the US has done through it's short history...from the new society to the new deal.....looking only inwards for solutions is not the answer......

It's clear you have no answer or any argument that doesn't include the word "Me" in it. instead of looking out for the seductive Lure of Socialism...you should be paying attention to the seductive lure of Capitalism.


Blah,blah, blah is the only respond left to people who are defeated in the battle of ideas. Yellow bus? That's why I see when I read your post about "keeping" my money blah blah blah  ....such shallow used for the your intellectual capacity leave you wanting my friend!

1.  So what is your personal philosophy which allows you to borrow ideas from all areas?
Let's see, I'll take a few capitalist ideas, mix it with some socialist policies, and then throw in a bit of dictatorship for good measure....

I agree that our country is a mix of republic and democracy.  But the U.S. Constituition is clearly a document intended to secure the rights of the individual and minorities.

I shall discontinue our discussion if you insist on continuing with the personal attacks.
Especially the one where you seem to think I'm your friend.   Why, I hardly even know you...

Dictatorship? Like in Germany? Nah......there you go again with fear mongering, that's ok because I have no intention to change your views..just to defend them if you can.

Or you probably meant the dictartoship that runs this country along with many others, is the dictartorship of those who control the means of production......ever heard of big oil, big pharma, big defense industry and so on and so on and that's why the most logical solutions to you and me are never implemented or they are implemented after the masses had enough. I mean, both parties have failed us with their bedding of oil while disregarding the cries for energy independence since the 70s. Why a nation like Brasil can become energy independent and move their whole fleet of cars and transportation to Ethanol while the US import 70% of their energy needs?

Not trying to lecture in here but Republic and Democracy are independent of each other, out Nation is a republic because is not govern by monarchy and to some extent the people participate in it's goverment while protecting the individual and thus the minority like you said, while democracy in it's pure form is the rule of the majority thus not protection to the individual or minority unless there is a constitution enforce by the Republic.

Yo can't deny Social Security or unemployment benefits have their origin in socialist concerns while bieng antagonist towards the concern of the capitalist............the question is how much socialism is effective enough in a capitalist society that by nature look to empower the individual OVER society. I'm just advocating the greater need for balance and like I provided you in the other thread........democracies with more socialism in their policies instead of capitalism domination are doing far better in quality of living and education which is the greater investement any society can make..........I feel ashame that we are not even to 20 in education and sixth graders in South Korea know more than our high school graduates.........we can do better than that and we will with the right policies.....the policies where goverment invest in the human capital despite the will of free market and private industry.

Sure perfection is impossible but there is plenty of room for improvement and clearly our supply side economic policies have failed us; just look at our infrastructure , our electrical grid and tranportation system...........in dire need of investment. Why the top 2% earn over 45% of the wealth created in this country? Surely the tax policies of the last 28 years had a direct impact......this type of distribution to the top is not sustunaible by a society and sooner or later it will crash on it's face. Or why 65% of US companies payed ZERO tax between 1998 and 2005? Sure on paper 35% tax looks high but in reality..........the goverment has provided the loopholes for most of these capitalists to avoid their tax responsibilty.

Is time for bottom up policies, is time to invest in human capital, is time to invest in our infrastructure instead of ilegal wars, is time for the redistribution of wealth to the top comes to a stop.........after all, money is a finite asset, the more the rich accumulate the less the masses will have independent of what type of work they due.......teachers, police, firemens, public servant, soldiers and so on work hard but get little in return in our society while the hedge fund manager makes millions in hour of work. Is that right?

Call me socialist then!