Author Topic: socialism...of any kind  (Read 4711 times)

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Online Babblelot

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socialism...of any kind
« on: September 27, 2008, 10:22:28 AM »
I despise Socialism of any sort.

Implicit in capitalism is the reality that there has to be "winners" and "losers". And government provides the following services for those who can't afford to pay for them out of pocket. (I defy you to find me "winners" that didn't accumulate their wealth without the free-handouts of the federal government at some level.)

Give me an up :thumbs-up:  or  down   :thumb-down:  vote on the following.


public education

police

fire department

defense

postal servive

sewage/sanitation

hospitals


infrastructure-if it's a good idea to build a freeway from SF to NYC (a) how do you collect the funds? (b) when are the engineers, paving companies, etc.. paid? (c) who owns the freeway? (d) who gets to use the freeway? (e) were you on the pipe when you came up with this half-baked plan?


Naivety gets simpletons a long way in life, but provide me *PROOF* that corporations would pay me $10K more today if they didn't pay my health insurance. What *EVIDENCE* is there to support the notion that corporations wouldn't do exactly as they do today, i.e., hoard all the profits and cash money for the senior management and executives.

 ;-() 
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2008, 10:40:22 AM »
    :thumbs up:
Police
Fire Protection
National security


   :hell-no:
Hospitals
Sanitation

    :dunno:
Postal service
Public education

Not sure what your definition of 'free handouts' is in relation to your first question about 'winners'.

Good question on infastructure.  Let me think on that one.

Re:  salary increase v. buying insurance.
I may be a naive simpleton because in my business I have a set profit margin and when that is exceeded the money is split with the employees.  When I paid for their health insurance that cut into the profit which in turn reduced the wage I was able to pay.

What's the difference whether it's insurance or increased salary that is offered to you?  Don't you consider the total value of the compensation package prior to contracting for employment?  Surely some corporations would choose to hoard the cash but those corps wanting the best employees would have to offer a better package in order to attract the best people.
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2008, 10:40:57 AM »
I feel special because it seems you started this topic just for me! :king:
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Online Babblelot

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2008, 11:00:56 AM »
You are special  :)

I hear you about the argument against socialism, but of any sort... I didn't think so. I just wanted to see you throw a :thumbs-up:  and you did   :)~ 

My point is, provide me *EVIDENCE* to support the notion that corporations wouldn't do exactly as they do today, i.e., hoard all the profits and cash money for the senior management and executives rather than share them with the rank-and-file. More profit equates to more wealth for the wealthy. That's what our great experiment called capitalism has borne out. Tell me why it will, all of the sudden, be any different.

Further, your assumption just don't float. It's cheaper for a corporation (economies of scale) to offer a group plan and pay *PART* of your premium than offer you the $10K more than the market price.

Oh, and if health insurance was socialized...
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 11:04:37 AM by Babblelot »
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Online Babblelot

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2008, 11:10:50 AM »
...in my business I have a set profit margin and when that is exceeded the money is split with the employees.  When I paid for their health insurance that cut into the profit which in turn reduced the wage I was able to pay.

This isn't about you and small business owners like yourself, monsta! These matters affect +300 million Americans.
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2008, 11:21:25 AM »
You are special  :)

I hear you about the argument against socialism, but of any sort... I didn't think so. I just wanted to see you throw a :thumbs-up:  and you did   :)~ 

My point is, provide me *EVIDENCE* to support the notion that corporations wouldn't do exactly as they do today, i.e., hoard all the profits and cash money for the senior management and executives rather than share them with the rank-and-file. More profit equates to more wealth for the wealthy. That's what our great experiment called capitalism has borne out. Tell me why it will, all of the sudden, be any different.

Further, your assumption just don't float. It's cheaper for a corporation (economies of scale) to offer a group plan and pay *PART* of your premium than offer you the $10K more than the market price.

Oh, and if health insurance was socialized...
As usual for me it all boils down to a man's life philosophy.
Here's mine which I've borrowed-
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. "

Can you guess the original book/author?

Here's the definition of Socialism-
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

Make no mistake, at it's core Socialism =  Slavery. :)
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Online Babblelot

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2008, 11:55:29 AM »
You are special  :)

I hear you about the argument against socialism, but of any sort... I didn't think so. I just wanted to see you throw a :thumbs-up:  and you did   :)~ 

My point is, provide me *EVIDENCE* to support the notion that corporations wouldn't do exactly as they do today, i.e., hoard all the profits and cash money for the senior management and executives rather than share them with the rank-and-file. More profit equates to more wealth for the wealthy. That's what our great experiment called capitalism has borne out. Tell me why it will, all of the sudden, be any different.

Further, your assumption just don't float. It's cheaper for a corporation (economies of scale) to offer a group plan and pay *PART* of your premium than offer you the $10K more than the market price.

Oh, and if health insurance was socialized...
As usual for me it all boils down to a man's life philosophy.
Here's mine which I've borrowed-
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. "

Can you guess the original book/author?

Here's the definition of Socialism-
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

Make no mistake, at it's core Socialism =  Slavery. :)

AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!

Your favorite, Marx, Communist Manifesto

I'm not arguing for socialism. Ours is a mixed society. It's neither purely capitalism nor purely socialism. My philoshophy, supported by 20th century American history, is that the government plays a valuable role in redistributing wealth so that the very rich and the very poor are dwarfed in comparison to the size of the middle-class; that the middle-class holds all the cards. No better place to look than the +20 year span between the 1950s-60s, known as The Great Compression.

Are we in disagreement ^^^here^^^...  :confused1:
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2008, 12:10:16 PM »
You are special  :)

I hear you about the argument against socialism, but of any sort... I didn't think so. I just wanted to see you throw a :thumbs-up:  and you did   :)~ 

My point is, provide me *EVIDENCE* to support the notion that corporations wouldn't do exactly as they do today, i.e., hoard all the profits and cash money for the senior management and executives rather than share them with the rank-and-file. More profit equates to more wealth for the wealthy. That's what our great experiment called capitalism has borne out. Tell me why it will, all of the sudden, be any different.

Further, your assumption just don't float. It's cheaper for a corporation (economies of scale) to offer a group plan and pay *PART* of your premium than offer you the $10K more than the market price.

Oh, and if health insurance was socialized...
As usual for me it all boils down to a man's life philosophy.
Here's mine which I've borrowed-
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. "

Can you guess the original book/author?

Here's the definition of Socialism-
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

Make no mistake, at it's core Socialism =  Slavery. :)

AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!

Your favorite, Marx, Communist Manifesto

I'm not arguing for socialism. Ours is a mixed society. It's neither purely capitalism nor purely socialism. My philoshophy, supported by 20th century American history, is that the government plays a valuable role in redistributing wealth so that the very rich and the very poor are dwarfed in comparison to the size of the middle-class; that the middle-class holds all the cards. No better place to look than the +20 year span between the 1950s-60s, known as The Great Compression.

Are we in disagreement ^^^here^^^...  :confused1:
Nope, not Marx.
Here's one more and then I'll give the answer at the end of this post:

The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles.
The book this is from is called  Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 1966.

Our country has certainly turned into a mix of the two concepts.
As an individual, I'm not so sure you can logically support both at the same time. :confused1:

Author's name  Ayn Rand
1st quote came from The Fountainhead which I'm currently reading for the 2nd time.
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Online Babblelot

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2008, 12:38:16 PM »
Ayn Rand  ..-)  Next you'll be quoting L. Ron Hubbard...

Back to a serious discussion. Forgettabout the mechanism by which we got there, do you agree with me that that America is better off when the the very rich and very poor are small, and power is in the hands of the people, i.e., middle-class?
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2008, 01:11:55 PM »
Ayn Rand  ..-)  Next you'll be quoting L. Ron Hubbard...

Back to a serious discussion. Forgettabout the mechanism by which we got there, do you agree with me that that America is better off when the the very rich and very poor are small, and power is in the hands of the people, i.e., middle-class?
I love some of L. Ron's sci-fi but I couldn't handle more than a couple of paragraphs of Dianetics! :shocking:

I'm trying to breakdown that statement and decide what I don't like about it......

I'll include another Rand quote in my response.  The quote is  directly related to your middle class concept!!!
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2008, 01:25:33 PM »
1.  America 'better off' is a pretty vague term.
Let's limit it to 'economically better off", ok?

2.  I think there will always be people at the very top and bottom of the food chain.  I'm not sure what the proper proportion is.   :Confused:

(My head is starting to hurt!   :mad1:   This is more 'thinking' than I've in quite some time. :rofl_2:)

.....

the more I mull it over the more complex my thoughts become.......


Ideally, I'd like to see a society/country where everyone has enough self-respect and self-esteem to want to fulfill their potetial in life.  If that were to occur, I think you'd see the poverty stricken all but disappear and the ranks of the upper middle class would swell accordingly.  I believe this effort / reward system can only exist in a  laissez-faire capitalist environment.


3.  A quick ride around the Boonies here might change your mind about the power to the people poop! :rofl_2:
j/k  A democratic republic is the only way to go.


Upper classes are a nation's past; the middle class is its future.   Ayn Rand
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Online Babblelot

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2008, 01:42:12 PM »
1.  America 'better off' is a pretty vague term.
Let's limit it to 'economically better off", ok?

2.  I think there will always be people at the very top and bottom of the food chain.  I'm not sure what the proper proportion is.   :Confused:

(My head is starting to hurt!   :mad1:   This is more 'thinking' than I've in quite some time. :rofl_2:)

.....

the more I mull it over the more complex my thoughts become.......


Ideally, I'd like to see a society/country where everyone has enough self-respect and self-esteem to want to fulfill their potetial in life.  If that were to occur, I think you'd see the poverty stricken all but disappear and the ranks of the upper middle class would swell accordingly.  I believe this effort / reward system can only exist in a  laissez-faire capitalist environment.


3.  A quick ride around the Boonies here might change your mind about the power to the people poop! :rofl_2:
j/k  A democratic republic is the only way to go.


Upper classes are a nation's past; the middle class is its future.   Ayn Rand

1. let's limit it to a real world discussion and shelve the idealism
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Online Babblelot

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2008, 02:25:55 PM »
Ideally, I'd like to see a society/country where everyone has enough self-respect and self-esteem to want to fulfill their potetial in life.  If that were to occur, I think you'd see the poverty stricken all but disappear and the ranks of the upper middle class would swell accordingly.  I believe this effort / reward system can only exist in a  laissez-faire capitalist environment.


1. let's limit it to a real world discussion and shelve the idealism

Here, let's throw special needs people into the melting pot:

autistic
physically handicapped
mentally ill
disease
elderly

Some things you are born with--autism, mental illness, physical handicap. Some things occur later in life--disease, mental illness, physical handicap due to accident, crime/terrorist victim, war veteran. (With respect to war veterans, any accomodation, e.g., transit, building access, toilet, etc.. has to accomodate all citizens.)

Let's say a man is not part of the current economic problem. He can pay is mortgage, he doesn't have car payments or credit card debt, and he can support his family of 2, soon to be 3, comfortably. Now, let's say his 3rd child is autistic. In your Darwinian world, he's not fit to survive.


Look, brah, this is hurting your brain because republicans have the luxury of exclusion. And make no mistake, YOU would exclude ME.

-------

"Free markets" (figment of your imagination) don't take care of by-products of capitalism, hence federal agencies like the EPA exist.  ;-()

And who in your imaginary "free market" world will "police" white collar criminals? Any policing agent (government), securities or neighborhoods, enforce laws created by congress (government) and upheld by the judicial system (government).

The longer you remain silent, the longer this list will grow and the more mental suffering you'll be subjected to.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 04:33:43 PM by Babblelot »
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2008, 10:20:02 AM »
Ideally, I'd like to see a society/country where everyone has enough self-respect and self-esteem to want to fulfill their potetial in life.  If that were to occur, I think you'd see the poverty stricken all but disappear and the ranks of the upper middle class would swell accordingly.  I believe this effort / reward system can only exist in a  laissez-faire capitalist environment.


1. let's limit it to a real world discussion and shelve the idealism

Here, let's throw special needs people into the melting pot:

autistic
physically handicapped
mentally ill
disease
elderly

Some things you are born with--autism, mental illness, physical handicap. Some things occur later in life--disease, mental illness, physical handicap due to accident, crime/terrorist victim, war veteran. (With respect to war veterans, any accomodation, e.g., transit, building access, toilet, etc.. has to accomodate all citizens.)

Let's say a man is not part of the current economic problem. He can pay is mortgage, he doesn't have car payments or credit card debt, and he can support his family of 2, soon to be 3, comfortably. Now, let's say his 3rd child is autistic. In your Darwinian world, he's not fit to survive.


Look, brah, this is hurting your brain because republicans have the luxury of exclusion. And make no mistake, YOU would exclude ME.

-------

"Free markets" (figment of your imagination) don't take care of by-products of capitalism, hence federal agencies like the EPA exist.  ;-()

And who in your imaginary "free market" world will "police" white collar criminals? Any policing agent (government), securities or neighborhoods, enforce laws created by congress (government) and upheld by the judicial system (government).

The longer you remain silent, the longer this list will grow and the more mental suffering you'll be subjected to.
Sorry to keep you waiting, I had a busy night and played some tennis this morning. :rofl_2:

1.  Idealism.  Without a destination, how the hell do you know where you are going and how to get there?
That is one of my biggest complaints about the social service approach to dealing with problems.  It's treating the symptom rather than the cause.  I think a better use of resources would be to attack both. 

2.  Our friends had 3 'normal' boys then an autistic daughter that died at 4 mos. old.  They then proceeded to have another son that was autistic.  The only thing more effin stupid than that is expecting me the taxpayer to pony up for that child for the rest of his life.  How's that for a real world example? :)~

3.  Hurting was the wrong term to describe my brain.  A reawakening is more like it.  Thank you!!! :friends:

4.  I haven't thought this part through enough.  Let me ponder it a bit and get back to you. 
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Online Babblelot

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2008, 11:07:16 AM »
1.  Idealism.  Without a destination, how the hell do you know where you are going and how to get there?
 

:good:  I'm not going to go beyond that, because you get high marks here.

One question for you: is hemlock part of your personal health care plan? If so, I have the same policy. If not, you should consider picking it up, it's practically free. :laugh-bounce:


You know, maybe the boys from Columbo have rubbed off on me... One of my buddies would definitely have your back. Funny thing is, I've known him for +15 years and have never been able to have a discussion about ideology with him because I want to grab him by the throat after about 30 sec. And to tell you the truth, a long time ago I read something you had said that was politically to the right of me and never wanted to return to a politically charged discussion because I didn't want you (and others) to be dead to me.

 :friends:   Here's one on me, brah  :beer:
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Offline jeffrx

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2008, 08:43:23 PM »
The older I get, the better socialism sounds!   :) 

We bust our butts every day, every month, year after year.  For what?  A house, a car, some damn sorry cable TV shows.  We all end up dead and buried when it's all said and done, so what is the point of all this? 

Sometimes I think we should all just "share."  LOL   

We, here in the US, seem to love sharing with countries that hate us, we just don't like to help each other. 

And Monster, you will never get the best employees if you don't offer health insurance and 401K plans!   
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Online Babblelot

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2008, 09:34:49 PM »
The older I get, the better socialism sounds!   :) 

We bust our butts every day, every month, year after year.  For what?  A house, a car, some damn sorry cable TV shows.  We all end up dead and buried when it's all said and done, so what is the point of all this? 

Sometimes I think we should all just "share."  LOL   

We, here in the US, seem to love sharing with countries that hate us, we just don't like to help each other. 

And Monster, you will never get the best employees if you don't offer health insurance and 401K plans!   

Wow! I really like that post  :good:
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2008, 06:38:18 AM »
The older I get, the better socialism sounds!   :) 

We bust our butts every day, every month, year after year.  For what?  A house, a car, some damn sorry cable TV shows.  We all end up dead and buried when it's all said and done, so what is the point of all this? 

Sometimes I think we should all just "share."  LOL   

We, here in the US, seem to love sharing with countries that hate us, we just don't like to help each other. 

And Monster, you will never get the best employees if you don't offer health insurance and 401K plans!   
The 3 employees I have are arguably the best in the area at what they do.  Guess what?  They receive the highest compensation pkg. as well.

Expecting someone else to tend to YOUR healthcare or YOUR retirement isn't the choice I made.

To answer your last question-  the point of all this is to live your life to the fullest.  Strive to achieve your max potential in all endeavors.
I'll leave you with this borrowed quote-
"The right to life is the source of all rights--and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave. "  A. R.  Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
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Offline jeffrx

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2008, 08:46:17 AM »
The older I get, the better socialism sounds!   :) 

We bust our butts every day, every month, year after year.  For what?  A house, a car, some damn sorry cable TV shows.  We all end up dead and buried when it's all said and done, so what is the point of all this? 

Sometimes I think we should all just "share."  LOL   

We, here in the US, seem to love sharing with countries that hate us, we just don't like to help each other. 

And Monster, you will never get the best employees if you don't offer health insurance and 401K plans!   
The 3 employees I have are arguably the best in the area at what they do.  Guess what?  They receive the highest compensation pkg. as well.

Expecting someone else to tend to YOUR healthcare or YOUR retirement isn't the choice I made.

To answer your last question-  the point of all this is to live your life to the fullest.  Strive to achieve your max potential in all endeavors.
I'll leave you with this borrowed quote-
"The right to life is the source of all rights--and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave. "  A. R.  Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal


I knew that was coming!  Monster, you are the best. 
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: socialism...of any kind
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2008, 12:03:54 PM »
The older I get, the better socialism sounds!   :) 

We bust our butts every day, every month, year after year.  For what?  A house, a car, some damn sorry cable TV shows.  We all end up dead and buried when it's all said and done, so what is the point of all this? 

Sometimes I think we should all just "share."  LOL   

We, here in the US, seem to love sharing with countries that hate us, we just don't like to help each other. 

And Monster, you will never get the best employees if you don't offer health insurance and 401K plans!   
The 3 employees I have are arguably the best in the area at what they do.  Guess what?  They receive the highest compensation pkg. as well.

Expecting someone else to tend to YOUR healthcare or YOUR retirement isn't the choice I made.

To answer your last question-  the point of all this is to live your life to the fullest.  Strive to achieve your max potential in all endeavors.
I'll leave you with this borrowed quote-
"The right to life is the source of all rights--and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave. "  A. R.  Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal


I knew that was coming!  Monster, you are the best. 
I'm not sure if it was the $$$ or the pleasure of working with me that first attracted them to the job! :whistle: :rofl_2:
CONK da ball!!!