Author Topic: The Libertarain Question  (Read 4199 times)

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Offline jeffrx

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2008, 01:53:40 PM »
Back in the 1988 Harry Browne was the Libertarian candidate for president (remember him? ..-))
While campaigning his message was consistant, and his opening question at all his speeches was the same.
Think about your favorite governmental program, would be willing to loose it if it meant you didn't have to pay any taxes?
One of the basic roles of our government is the redistribution of wealth in this country. Like everything else, they are very inefficient at it. They do it  by taxing us, and giving those taxes to the poor, but unfortunately, they give more of it to the rich, in the form of business deals, and weapons purchasing, or put it in their own pockets. They throw it at "problems" little or no oversight. "Budget"? What budget, just print more money.
So think about it. No taxes, but no governmental interference. You are on your own. Could you handle it?
I would love the opportunity, where do I need to move to for that to happen?  Do they have tennis courts?

Tennis courts?  Usually Municipality/Park system....
Lots of people make passes at me, I'm a tennis player!

Offline monstertruck

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2008, 02:10:44 PM »
Back in the 1988 Harry Browne was the Libertarian candidate for president (remember him? ..-))
While campaigning his message was consistant, and his opening question at all his speeches was the same.
Think about your favorite governmental program, would be willing to loose it if it meant you didn't have to pay any taxes?
One of the basic roles of our government is the redistribution of wealth in this country. Like everything else, they are very inefficient at it. They do it  by taxing us, and giving those taxes to the poor, but unfortunately, they give more of it to the rich, in the form of business deals, and weapons purchasing, or put it in their own pockets. They throw it at "problems" little or no oversight. "Budget"? What budget, just print more money.
So think about it. No taxes, but no governmental interference. You are on your own. Could you handle it?
I would love the opportunity, where do I need to move to for that to happen?  Do they have tennis courts?

Tennis courts?  Usually Municipality/Park system....
I currently play mostly private courts that I earned the money to join. :)~
CONK da ball!!!

Online Babblelot

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2008, 02:24:36 PM »
Babs, the part that cracks me up/pisses me off is that the majority of people refer to the guvamint as some separate entity apart from themselves.  As soons as some Nanny State is created to tend to the wants and needs of the able-bodied, we've begun the first step towards legalized slavery.


Duuuuude! Your best laid plans will blow up in yo face and you'll see what legalized slavery means.

I'm gunna ask again: if government goes away, what emerges in it's vacuum? There is an answer. I just wonder what you guys come up with that makes you believe it's a legit alternative to the economic structure we have in place today, a system that works O.K.

monster, I don't want to hear about your Randian/Libertarian utopia  ..-) That crap sells books and makes CEOs feel good about being complete d-bags. Gimme sumpin' reality based in place of what we have goin' on today  :)~
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 02:48:50 PM by Babblelot »
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2008, 03:17:46 PM »
Babs, the part that cracks me up/pisses me off is that the majority of people refer to the guvamint as some separate entity apart from themselves.  As soons as some Nanny State is created to tend to the wants and needs of the able-bodied, we've begun the first step towards legalized slavery.


Duuuuude! Your best laid plans will blow up in yo face and you'll see what legalized slavery means.

I'm gunna ask again: if government goes away, what emerges in it's vacuum? There is an answer. I just wonder what you guys come up with that makes you believe it's a legit alternative to the economic structure we have in place today, a system that works O.K.

monster, I don't want to hear about your Randian/Libertarian utopia   ..-) That crap sells books and makes CEOs feel good about being complete d-bags. Gimme sumpin' reality based in place of what we have goin' on today  :)~
In order to achieve you must first believe.

Each individual possesses inalienable rights—the rights to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of his own happiness.[citation needed] "Rights are moral principles defining and sanctioning a man's freedom of action in a social context" ["Man's Rights," The Virtue of Selfishness]. Government is the institution with a monopoly on the use of physical force in a given geographical area, so the issue is whether that force is to be used to protect or to violate individual rights—i.e., whether the government uses force only in retaliation or whether it initiates force against innocent citizens. Under laissez-faire Capitalism, the government is restricted to using retaliatory force, to protect individual rights—which means the only proper functions of the government are "the police, to protect men from criminals; the military forces, to protect men from foreign invaders; and the law courts, to protect men's property and contracts from breach by force or fraud, and to settle disputes among men according to objectively defined laws." [Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal,

Sorry for the cut and paste job. :(

I much prefer a society where each individual strives for their own goals rather than toiling for the collective benefit of others.  Laissez-faire capitalism is the only economic policy which permits this to happen.
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Online Babblelot

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2008, 03:23:38 PM »
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men. "

Can you guess the original book/author?

Here's the definition of Socialism-
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

Make no mistake, at it's core Socialism =  Slavery.

Here's one more and then I'll give the answer at the end of this post:

The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles.
The book this is from is called  Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 1966.

Our country has certainly turned into a mix of the two concepts.
As an individual, I'm not so sure you can logically support both at the same time. :confused1:

Author's name  Ayn Rand
1st quote came from The Fountainhead which I'm currently reading for the 2nd time.

Upper classes are a nation's past; the middle class is its future.   Ayn Rand[/size]

I'll leave you with this borrowed quote-
"The right to life is the source of all rights--and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave. "  A. R.  Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.   A. R.

Each individual possesses inalienable rights—the rights to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of his own happiness.[citation needed] "Rights are moral principles defining and sanctioning a man's freedom of action in a social context" ["Man's Rights," The Virtue of Selfishness]. Government is the institution with a monopoly on the use of physical force in a given geographical area, so the issue is whether that force is to be used to protect or to violate individual rights—i.e., whether the government uses force only in retaliation or whether it initiates force against innocent citizens. Under laissez-faire Capitalism, the government is restricted to using retaliatory force, to protect individual rights—which means the only proper functions of the government are "the police, to protect men from criminals; the military forces, to protect men from foreign invaders; and the law courts, to protect men's property and contracts from breach by force or fraud, and to settle disputes among men according to objectively defined laws." [Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal,

I'm going to get back to this when I have some time.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 03:27:38 PM by Babblelot »
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Offline jeffrx

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2008, 03:32:46 PM »
Back in the 1988 Harry Browne was the Libertarian candidate for president (remember him? ..-))
While campaigning his message was consistant, and his opening question at all his speeches was the same.
Think about your favorite governmental program, would be willing to loose it if it meant you didn't have to pay any taxes?
One of the basic roles of our government is the redistribution of wealth in this country. Like everything else, they are very inefficient at it. They do it  by taxing us, and giving those taxes to the poor, but unfortunately, they give more of it to the rich, in the form of business deals, and weapons purchasing, or put it in their own pockets. They throw it at "problems" little or no oversight. "Budget"? What budget, just print more money.
So think about it. No taxes, but no governmental interference. You are on your own. Could you handle it?
I would love the opportunity, where do I need to move to for that to happen?  Do they have tennis courts?

Tennis courts?  Usually Municipality/Park system....
I currently play mostly private courts that I earned the money to join. :)~

You are too much....
Lots of people make passes at me, I'm a tennis player!

Offline jeffrx

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2008, 03:34:45 PM »
Babs, the part that cracks me up/pisses me off is that the majority of people refer to the guvamint as some separate entity apart from themselves.  As soons as some Nanny State is created to tend to the wants and needs of the able-bodied, we've begun the first step towards legalized slavery.


Duuuuude! Your best laid plans will blow up in yo face and you'll see what legalized slavery means.

I'm gunna ask again: if government goes away, what emerges in it's vacuum? There is an answer. I just wonder what you guys come up with that makes you believe it's a legit alternative to the economic structure we have in place today, a system that works O.K.

monster, I don't want to hear about your Randian/Libertarian utopia  ..-) That crap sells books and makes CEOs feel good about being complete d-bags. Gimme sumpin' reality based in place of what we have goin' on today  :)~

I think the answer is rogue military groups, such as what we have seen in parts of Africa and Haiti.
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Offline jeffrx

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2008, 03:36:53 PM »
Back in the 1988 Harry Browne was the Libertarian candidate for president (remember him? ..-))
While campaigning his message was consistant, and his opening question at all his speeches was the same.
Think about your favorite governmental program, would be willing to loose it if it meant you didn't have to pay any taxes?
One of the basic roles of our government is the redistribution of wealth in this country. Like everything else, they are very inefficient at it. They do it  by taxing us, and giving those taxes to the poor, but unfortunately, they give more of it to the rich, in the form of business deals, and weapons purchasing, or put it in their own pockets. They throw it at "problems" little or no oversight. "Budget"? What budget, just print more money.
So think about it. No taxes, but no governmental interference. You are on your own. Could you handle it?
I would love the opportunity, where do I need to move to for that to happen?  Do they have tennis courts?

Tennis courts?  Usually Municipality/Park system....
I currently play mostly private courts that I earned the money to join. :)~

By the way, so do I.  the only difference is that I realize that most people view me as a rich as$hole when I put it that way (I'm not saying that about you, but that's how some people feel).
Lots of people make passes at me, I'm a tennis player!

Offline monstertruck

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2008, 03:41:42 PM »
Babs, the part that cracks me up/pisses me off is that the majority of people refer to the guvamint as some separate entity apart from themselves.  As soons as some Nanny State is created to tend to the wants and needs of the able-bodied, we've begun the first step towards legalized slavery.


Duuuuude! Your best laid plans will blow up in yo face and you'll see what legalized slavery means.

I'm gunna ask again: if government goes away, what emerges in it's vacuum? There is an answer. I just wonder what you guys come up with that makes you believe it's a legit alternative to the economic structure we have in place today, a system that works O.K.

monster, I don't want to hear about your Randian/Libertarian utopia  ..-) That crap sells books and makes CEOs feel good about being complete d-bags. Gimme sumpin' reality based in place of what we have goin' on today  :)~
I don't wanna hear about your pot smokin', free-lovin', hippie commune!  That crap is for people with mushh for brains! ;-() :rofl_2:
CONK da ball!!!

Offline dmastous

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2008, 05:52:21 PM »

Anecdotal arguments aren't helpful. I can come up with 2 anecdotes to every 1 you have. jeffrx started a very long list of services that the government does "well". My emphasis has been that our current system of a mixed-economy is "O.K." Allocation of funds can improve or completely gut programs. Remember, for political reasons, some programs are underfunded to fail. In turn, concervatives and Libertarians say, "big government is ineffective".

Government provides services, things like--but not limited to--USPS, sanitation & waste management, education--that MOST people can't provide for themselves. Government also provides services like--but not limited to--infrastructure, EPA, hurricane relief, all of which arise due to shortcomings or failures of "free markets".

OK I'll take them one at a time;
USPS, we already have FedEx, UPS, DHL and a few other services that can fill the void, not to mention email, PMs and message boards such as this one,
Santitation and waste managment: That's already privatized. That's what WM (Waste Managment does for a living),
Education: I've already pointed out that private education is uniformly better than public education. Right now public schools are no more than poor baby sitters. The only issue is cost. If there were no taxes you would have more to pay for education wouldn't you? Churches and social groups, as well as home schooling can take care of the rest.
In the end all these things can be privatized, and improved as a result. I do think there needs to be some limited governmental oversight, but that goes back to "make the laws, enforce the laws, and protect the people," from both those who would want to kill them, and those who would want to enslave them, and finally, in a pinch, from themselves. But that should be a rare situation, not the norm, which is where we are going.

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Online Babblelot

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2008, 06:01:05 PM »
Here’s the part I’ve been baiting you Libertarians into taking a shot at, but none of you are brave enough to bite. So I will answer my own question: if government goes away, what emerges in its vacuum?

As long as we have large corporations (gasp—indeed, it’s big business that fills the void!), we’ll need a strong government that is independent of big business to check abuses of power. Large corporations have way less interest in doing "good" than the government. My favorite example: if not for governmental regulators (EPA), big business would pollute unchecked in pursuit of the all mighty dollar. And we’ve seen more than once that lax regulation of financial markets promotes higher highs and ultimately much more painful lows (remember, the SEC was a New Deal creation).

Another harbinger of failure is natural disaster. Hurricane Katrina was a clear cut example of why Libertarianism doesn't work. There simply are many problems the free market can't solve. There are times when the government has to assert itself as an instrument of good. monster, did Ayn Rand forget to mention that when a government is too small it can be taken over by nature? Brother, I hope you see from this paragraph the glaring shortcoming of your personal philosophy. The first time I read it it struck me like a 2x4 right between the eye balls.

Small government and a Libertarian philosophy is just another way of making sure the power elite always come out ahead in life’s contest because there is no powerful referee to keep things fair. In practice, Libertarianism is a path to the Gilded Age and ends in social Darwinism, which is just another brand of (power elite) tyranny.

NOW, all of this being said… it's useful to be skeptical and watchful of government and put some stock in Libertarian critiques, up to a point. Sure, government abuses power. Anyone with your money or with my money will abuse power. The idea is to work a system that allows us live as best we can to achieve a more perfect union. Please do not whine (A.R.) that it will never be perfect therefore we must drown it.
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Offline dmastous

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2008, 07:08:09 PM »
Strong is one thing. Large, wasteful, selfserving and overbearing is an entirely different thing. There are times when government needs to step in in an oversight role. But it should be when the market demonstrates it can't do what needs to be done, not in place of the market. It should be quick, decisive and temporary. Then back to business as usual.

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Online Babblelot

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2008, 07:16:07 PM »
Strong is one thing. Large, wasteful, selfserving and overbearing is an entirely different thing. There are times when government needs to step in in an oversight role. But it should be when the market demonstrates it can't do what needs to be done, not in place of the market. It should be quick, decisive and temporary. Then back to business as usual.

How does that work? Expand, contract... what's the dynamic?
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Offline dmastous

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2008, 07:24:06 PM »
Strong is one thing. Large, wasteful, selfserving and overbearing is an entirely different thing. There are times when government needs to step in in an oversight role. But it should be when the market demonstrates it can't do what needs to be done, not in place of the market. It should be quick, decisive and temporary. Then back to business as usual.

How does that work? Expand, contract... what's the dynamic?

Assist. Not expand, just step in where necessary, then fade back into the woodwork. That's of course an ideal and nearly impossible. Currently the government seems to have a policy that once a bureaucracy is started it can never be reduced or erased, only enlarged.
This is the nature of a bureaucracy, and those that operate them. They must first establish their empire, then make it ever bigger to justify more and more power. This happens in corporations too. But at least a corporation has to make financial sense most of the time.

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And is the sawdust jealous?
I worry about these things .

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Offline Pacer

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2008, 08:27:31 PM »
Here’s the part I’ve been baiting you Libertarians into taking a shot at, but none of you are brave enough to bite. So I will answer my own question: if government goes away, what emerges in its vacuum?

As long as we have large corporations (gasp—indeed, it’s big business that fills the void!), we’ll need a strong government that is independent of big business to check abuses of power. Large corporations have way less interest in doing "good" than the government. My favorite example: if not for governmental regulators (EPA), big business would pollute unchecked in pursuit of the all mighty dollar. And we’ve seen more than once that lax regulation of financial markets promotes higher highs and ultimately much more painful lows (remember, the SEC was a New Deal creation).

Another harbinger of failure is natural disaster. Hurricane Katrina was a clear cut example of why Libertarianism doesn't work. There simply are many problems the free market can't solve. There are times when the government has to assert itself as an instrument of good. monster, did Ayn Rand forget to mention that when a government is too small it can be taken over by nature? Brother, I hope you see from this paragraph the glaring shortcoming of your personal philosophy. The first time I read it it struck me like a 2x4 right between the eye balls.

Small government and a Libertarian philosophy is just another way of making sure the power elite always come out ahead in life’s contest because there is no powerful referee to keep things fair. In practice, Libertarianism is a path to the Gilded Age and ends in social Darwinism, which is just another brand of (power elite) tyranny.

NOW, all of this being said… it's useful to be skeptical and watchful of government and put some stock in Libertarian critiques, up to a point. Sure, government abuses power. Anyone with your money or with my money will abuse power. The idea is to work a system that allows us live as best we can to achieve a more perfect union. Please do not whine (A.R.) that it will never be perfect therefore we must drown it.

That sums it up nicely :)). I've never fully understood the less government argument. I just hear the same mantra that keeping governemnt out of our lives would somehow make the world a better place. But how? No, seriously how? Less government means less regulation of self-interested entities, such as corporations, which in turn means more exploitation of everyone middle-class and lower on the economic food chain. Less government means fewer social programs.

Yes, those icky social programs are actually a good thing in most cases. If the programs are well-executed, they can increase the wealth potential of the lower-class, which will in turn strengthen the economy, which then gives more value to the wealth already possessed by middle- and upper-class groups. So the real problem is execution and therefore the people we elect to office not government itself.

The government is not some conscious being that exist on it's own, it's not flawed, the people are flawed, yet we elect them, so maybe WE are flawed. I don't see how reverting back to some form of a hunter-gatherer society would benefit us. But hey, maybe I'm a bit too wet behind the ears to fully grasp the idea of less government. So I'm hoping that someone can show me some evidence which proves that it would be beneficial, that's all. ;-()
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2008, 04:37:24 AM »


Another harbinger of failure is natural disaster. Hurricane Katrina was a clear cut example of why Libertarianism doesn't work. There simply are many problems the free market can't solve. There are times when the government has to assert itself as an instrument of good. monster, did Ayn Rand forget to mention that when a government is too small it can be taken over by nature? Brother, I hope you see from this paragraph the glaring shortcoming of your personal philosophy. The first time I read it it struck me like a 2x4 right between the eye balls.

put some stock in Libertarian critiques, up to a point.  Please do not whine (A.R.) that it will never be perfect therefore we must drown it.
1.  Do both you and Pacer think that the government is some separate entity?  .  It is one entity in this country funded by the people.  That brings up the most important question-  By what right, by what moral code do you attempt to bind me to my fellow man? 

So the guvamint (meaning me the taxpapyer) is supposed to be prepared for any natural disaster and I'm supposed to foot the bill for some fool that chooses to live on the coast below sea-level?  Or give of my time and effort to support national healthcare for a 2 pack a day smoker that develops lung cancer & emphysema? wtf (Or worse yet supply drugs to a drug addict because that is the latest fad treatment for that 'disease'. )  :sick:

If you folks are in favor of such a Nanny State, why don't you move to France? :shades:

My personal philosophy has served me well.  By contrast, my chronically unemployed brother who's spent his life living on the dole (read as your dime) could be the poster child of your philosophy. :rofl_2:  Thanks for the offer, but I choose to take care of myself. :gleam:

Lookout Bab's that's a 60' 4x6 steel girder headed your way..... ;-() :fish:

2.  So you'll pick and choose which philosophies fit your needs at the time?  :head-smack: Now your starting to sound like Emma! :rofl_2:  "I am sure my some of my opinions are biased but I am unaware of it. I do try hard though but who's above it? I mean how many people know why they said what they had just said?" :rofl_2:


I'll say it again, the more I'm taxed to provide for these 'social services' the less I'll work.  And I love to work. :))
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 04:46:22 AM by monstertruck »
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Online Babblelot

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2008, 05:46:14 PM »
Look, hoss, you live in a "nanny state" now. Why don’t YOU move!  DOH!

Quote
monster wrote: 1. Do both you and Pacer think that the government is some separate entity? It is one entity in this country funded by the people. That brings up the most important question-  By what right, by what moral code do you attempt to bind me to my fellow man?

Quote
monster wrote: 2. So the guvamint (meaning me the taxpayer) is supposed to be prepared for any natural disaster and I'm supposed to foot the bill for some fool that chooses to live on the coast below sea-level?


@ #2: Your whole friggin' town can burn down if too many cows congregated in one place and one of you sasquatch start playing with rocks and flint. No homes, holmes, no business, no declaration of a disaster area, no state or federal funds. What horrible life decision did you make? Silly sasquatch burned down the village and A.R. says, "Hey, whether you knowing or unwittingly chose to, you lived among the sasquatch. Now go away, your slate has been wiped clean and this world no longer has use for you. You lost!"

@ #1 and #2: Your complaints are many; if I respond to one, you’ll throw 3 more in my face. At the same time, I presented more free-market failures (they fall under externalities, quality controls, cartels and monopolies, regulations, public goods, economic stability) that you continually, and for good reason, conveniently won’t address. I understand your personal philosophy, I have no problem with it, in fact, I find it admirable. If you can live your entire life adhering to your tenets, my hat is off to you. That said, is morality not a human construction influenced by culture? Is culture, in turn, not a pillar of society? One problem that many, self included, have with Randians is that you are ardent believers of an unprovable doctrine that claims you have discovered absolute standards of right and wrong. And yet, this “Objectivism” is out of touch with complex interrelationships and interconnected systems of modern life. So, until I hear YOU describe your “STATE” --for s**ts and giggles, let’s just call it the United Libertarian States--, all I can do is repeat here what I’ve already stated: Please do not whine, Ayn Rand, ‘our mixed economy will never be perfect therefore we must drown it.’

Quote
monster wrote: I'll say it again, the more I'm taxed to provide for these 'social services' the less I'll work.  And I love to work.

Thank you for offering this utterly insincere steaming pile of horsie manure. It’s a perfectly packaged Randian/Libertarian slogan wrapped around an empty threat. If you CHOOSE to work less, you do so with the comfort and peace of mind that comes with knowing that you are your own master. Today, as in feudal societies, slogans are doublespeak that hide social truths which are the exact opposite of their rhetorical claims. I give you the “Patriot Act”.

I suppose since you are reluctant to talk about the elephant in the room--big business--we will have to leave that for another discussion. But for my parting shot, I will leave you with this: power abhors a vacuum.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 06:28:03 PM by Babblelot »
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Offline Pacer

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2008, 10:38:11 PM »
1.  Do both you and Pacer think that the government is some separate entity?  .  It is one entity in this country funded by the people.  That brings up the most important question-  By what right, by what moral code do you attempt to bind me to my fellow man?[/quote]

Well, I'm not sure how you got this from my post. Maybe I wasn't clear. :confused1:

Personally, I believe that Libertarian ideology is fundamentally flawed and unworkable. I envision a band of market worshipers with a world view not only ahistoric but irrelevant to the world in which we live.The ideal libertarian society is a utopia, one created by ignoring the complexities of real life. It will certainly never be realized. On the personal level, Libertarian beliefs are fine, but it won't work on the societal level. Since Babble basically addressed the points I would have( particularly free market failures), I won't go on, no use in repeating. I have many issues with Libertarian ideology. But, I'd like see above points addressed first by you Libertarians if possible. You guys are much older and therefore wiser than I, so drop some knowledge on me. :))

By the way who is Emma?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 11:04:37 PM by Pacer »
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Offline dmastous

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2008, 12:34:20 AM »

Personally, I believe that Libertarian ideology is fundamentally flawed and unworkable. I envision a band of market worshipers with a world view not only ahistoric but irrelevant to the world in which we live.The ideal libertarian society is a utopia, one created by ignoring the complexities of real life. It will certainly never be realized. On the personal level, Libertarian beliefs are fine, but it won't work on the societal level. Since Babble basically addressed the points I would have( particularly free market failures), I won't go on, no use in repeating. I have many issues with Libertarian ideology. But, I'd like see above points addressed first by you Libertarians if possible. You guys are much older and therefore wiser than I, so drop some knowledge on me. :))


Older maybe, but wiser? Who knows.
If you haven't gotten the picture of what the libertarian philosophy is by now in this thread, perhaps you aren't ready to recognise it yet. Maybe you will never recognise it, or believe. You said "Libertarian ideology is fundamentally flawed and unworkable" That it's flawed, there is no doubt. But unworkable? It's no more unworkable than the current system. In fact human nature makes all religion and all governments flawed in one way or another. We agree, we disagree, and we have to coexist.
Your vision of a caring, giving government that helps the poor and downtrodden is just as flawed and unworkable. Seven months ago Hawaii became the first state to being a universal health care system. All children up to 18, who didn't have a private healthcare provider via their family, would have access to healthcare paid for by the state. It was announced Friday that that program would be discontinued. Why? Because it was broke. Families who had been paying for healthcare were opting out so they could get the state to pay for their children's health care. This is an example of why welfare systems fundamentally don't work. It's water seeking the easiest path, well that's what people do. If I have to work to earn money to get what I want, or survive, I will work. But for many if you offer a way for them not to have to work, or work, more often than not, they will choose to not work, and just hold out their hand.
It's an all or nothing proposition. We have to either go all the way, and create what is essentially a communistic system where we just give the government all our money and the government takes care of us cradle to grave (and take the consequences), or we go the libertarian route (and become selfsufficient out of necessity), because half measures don't work. They are self perpetuating, and eat us up until they spin out of control. You mentioned in another thread about welfare families. You don't know how to stop that trend. Well, I don't know either. But I do know that if a child is raised in a home where the parents are on welfare for there entire life, where are they going to get the understanding that living on welfare isn't the best way to live? Add the fact that families get more money for each child they have (up to 5), and you have a recipe for welfare growth that is a troubling trend. While many working families (save farm families) have 1 or 2 children because that's about all the expense they are willing to take on, welfare families seem to always consist of 4 or 5 children. Some children pull themselves out, and go on to work and be productive members of society, but most just follow the path of their parents and create more children and more welfare need.
This kind of system cannot survive. It too is not only flawed, but fatally flawed.
Government is a bad babysitter, and caregiver. Government is incredibly wastefull and inefficient. Large government programs are bureaucratic, and uncaring, creating horror stories like Veteran Administration hospitals. Government tends to be even more obtuse and overbearing than those nasty big cooperations that you are so afraid of. In fact what is the US government, or any government but a giant cooperation? During the Clinton presidency the US government became the worlds largest employer. That's one big humongous cooperation in my mind. It will continue to get bigger and bigger until it consumes us all.
I don't think libertarianism is the answer. There is no absolute right answer for everyone because everyone sees things differently, or looks for different things out of life. I don't agree with all the planks in their platform, in fact I'm on board with perhaps 50% or so. But I think it's better that than the direction in which we are going.

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Offline monstertruck

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Re: The Libertarain Question
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2008, 06:45:14 AM »
1.  Do both you and Pacer think that the government is some separate entity?  .  It is one entity in this country funded by the people.  That brings up the most important question-  By what right, by what moral code do you attempt to bind me to my fellow man?[/quote]

 :paper bag:. Maybe I wasn't clear. :confused1:

Personally, I believe that Libertarian ideology is fundamentally flawed and unworkable. I envision a band of market worshipers with a world view not only ahistoric but irrelevant to the world in which we live.The ideal libertarian society is a utopia, one created by ignoring the complexities of real life. It will certainly never be realized. On the personal level, Libertarian beliefs are fine, but it won't work on the societal level. Since Babble basically addressed the points I would have( particularly free market failures), I won't go on, no use in repeating. I have many issues with Libertarian ideology. But, I'd like see above points addressed first by you Libertarians if possible. You guys are much older and therefore wiser than I, so drop some knowledge on me. :))

By the way who is Emma?

Rats, I skimmed again! :paper bag:  My apologies.

I'm not sure about the dropping of knowledge from me. :Confused:  All I have are my opinions which I enjoy sharing.  I also am interested in other viewpoints and how they are formed.  It seems to me that many discussions begin with a single 'hot topic' and then rapidly expand in all directions.  As in my everyday life, I attempt to solve problems by breaking things down into managable tasks.  In politics, the first question I ask of my more liberal family & friends and I'll ask you all the same is this-

  By what right, by what moral code do you attempt to bind me to my fellow man?


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