Author Topic: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.  (Read 2306 times)

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Online dmastous

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Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« on: February 05, 2009, 10:05:42 PM »
Quote
WILLIAMSBURG, Virginia (CNN) -- President Barack Obama said Thursday that "the scale and the scope" of his economic plan is right, turning up the heat on critics he said were hawking "phony arguments" and "false theories of the past" to chip away at the bill's programs.

 "Don't come to the table with the same tired arguments and worn ideas that helped to create this crisis," the president said at the House Democrats' annual retreat in Williamsburg.

"We're not going to get relief by turning back to the very same policies that, for the last eight years, doubled the national debt and threw our economy into a tailspin," he said. "We can't embrace the losing formula that says only tax cuts will work for every problem we face, that ignores critical challenges like our addiction to foreign oil, or the soaring cost of health care, or failing schools and crumbling bridges and roads and levees.

"I don't care whether you're driving a hybrid or an SUV -- if you're headed for a cliff, you've got to change direction."

Quote
"If we do not move swiftly to sign [the act] into law, an economy that is already in crisis will be faced with catastrophe," he said.

Quote
President Obama said if a stimulus bill isn't passed the economy will continue to get worse.

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Online Babblelot

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2009, 12:49:33 AM »
From what I understand, it will pass Friday. Again, I'm holding my breath over what will get whacked.
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 08:33:54 AM »
The economy will continue to get worse whether the package is implemented or not.
The abuse of credit by the people, the government, and businesses is a huge factor in the current crisis.
I don't think throwing money at it is the cure.

I agree that tax cuts will not cure every challenge we face and neither will a stimulus package!!!!
Mark my words, it's going to get worse, much worse and I'm not sure there's much that can be done about it.
It's time to tighten our belts.

CONK da ball!!!

Online dmastous

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2009, 08:41:06 AM »
From what I understand, it will pass Friday. Again, I'm holding my breath over what will get whacked.

Holding your breath, does this mean you want it to pass?

Is a tree as a rocking horse
An ambition fulfilled
And is the sawdust jealous?
I worry about these things .

Kevin Godley & Lol Crème (I Pity Inanimate Objects)

Offline pawan89

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2009, 10:46:26 AM »
The economy will continue to get worse whether the package is implemented or not.
The abuse of credit by the people, the government, and businesses is a huge factor in the current crisis.
I don't think throwing money at it is the cure.

I agree that tax cuts will not cure every challenge we face and neither will a stimulus package!!!!
Mark my words, it's going to get worse, much worse and I'm not sure there's much that can be done about it.
It's time to tighten our belts.




 :death:


Online Babblelot

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2009, 10:48:19 AM »
The economy will continue to get worse whether the package is implemented or not.
The abuse of credit by the people, the government, and businesses is a huge factor in the current crisis.
I don't think throwing money at it is the cure.

I agree that tax cuts will not cure every challenge we face and neither will a stimulus package!!!!
Mark my words, it's going to get worse, much worse and I'm not sure there's much that can be done about it.
It's time to tighten our belts.


The juggernaut is not tax cuts (haven't you heard, they've never worked). This recovery package will be driven by public works projects. Sheesh, tax cuts?!
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2009, 10:49:45 AM »
The economy will continue to get worse whether the package is implemented or not.
The abuse of credit by the people, the government, and businesses is a huge factor in the current crisis.
I don't think throwing money at it is the cure.

I agree that tax cuts will not cure every challenge we face and neither will a stimulus package!!!!
Mark my words, it's going to get worse, much worse and I'm not sure there's much that can be done about it.
It's time to tighten our belts.




 :death:
Beware the Doomsday Stimulus Package.

It's like putting a band aid on a cancer patient. :(

« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 10:51:04 AM by monstertruck »
CONK da ball!!!

Online Babblelot

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2009, 10:50:08 AM »
From what I understand, it will pass Friday. Again, I'm holding my breath over what will get whacked.

Holding your breath, does this mean you want it to pass?

F-YES I do!
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Online dmastous

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 11:52:59 AM »
From what I understand, it will pass Friday. Again, I'm holding my breath over what will get whacked.

Holding your breath, does this mean you want it to pass?

F-YES I do!

So you will put you faith in the government to prop things up.



The juggernaut is not tax cuts (haven't you heard, they've never worked). This recovery package will be driven by public works projects. Sheesh, tax cuts?!

Putting the money back in the people's pockets so they can go buy things, and start business, and support the economy is the basis of a capitalistic free enterprise system. Taking the money out of our pockets to pay for government projects is the basis for a socialist government controlled system.
Sure we don't trust the rich fat cat CEOs to be socially aware. They are proving everyday they don't care. But they have never cared. They didn't care when it was the robber barons of the 18th century or the 19th century or now. But the system always rights itself. The government, with this "stimulus packege" is just getting in the way. Delaying the inevitable. The system will right itself, and the longer we delay that from happening, the worst that correction will be.
The alternative is everybody works for the government, and the government tells us what to do, how to do it, and when to do it. That is the direction Obama is taking us. And you are all on board. Hope you enjoy the ride.

Is a tree as a rocking horse
An ambition fulfilled
And is the sawdust jealous?
I worry about these things .

Kevin Godley & Lol Crème (I Pity Inanimate Objects)

Online Babblelot

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2009, 12:54:52 PM »
Note: I apologize for all the edits, but I wanted to add more beef to my arguement when I had found time.



From what I understand, it will pass Friday. Again, I'm holding my breath over what will get whacked.

Holding your breath, does this mean you want it to pass?

F-YES I do!

So you will put you faith in the government to prop things up.



The juggernaut is not tax cuts (haven't you heard, they've never worked). This recovery package will be driven by public works projects. Sheesh, tax cuts?!

Putting the money back in the people's pockets so they can go buy things, and start business, and support the economy is the basis of a capitalistic free enterprise system. Taking the money out of our pockets to pay for government projects is the basis for a socialist government controlled system.
Sure we don't trust the rich fat cat CEOs to be socially aware. They are proving everyday they don't care. But they have never cared. They didn't care when it was the robber barons of the 18th century or the 19th century or now. But the system always rights itself. The government, with this "stimulus packege" is just getting in the way. Delaying the inevitable. The system will right itself, and the longer we delay that from happening, the worst that correction will be.
The alternative is everybody works for the government, and the government tells us what to do, how to do it, and when to do it. That is the direction Obama is taking us. And you are all on board. Hope you enjoy the ride.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. That's what's gotten in your (collective) heads, that's where the fear arises, that's why folks who rail against big govt get away with creating the most intrusive and biggest governments and untempered deficits (very Ted Haggardesque).

Know your history and your ecomomics: how did the government break the back of the wealth inequality of the gilded age, and create the strongest middle class, and manufacturing (i.e., labor) based economy to date, all of which was implemented before WWII (but actually wasn't enough, more should have been done to create sustainable employemnt)? The gilded age and post-gilded age America is our model: learn it.

What have we learned from "free markets"? You (collective) have not learned a damn thing. Deregulation leads to bubbles, creates extreme wealth and poverty, and the bubbles ultimately burst. Then the government has to clean up the mess. Capitalistic banks and financial institutions are begging the government to bail them out, and the "free market" wonks (lol) are Johnny-on-the-spot to bail their buddies out. In the meantime, jobs go to the lowest bidder (overseas), and so, too, do tax havens! Why? Profits, to break organized labor, and profits. That's your system, bud.

What's more, tax cuts for the rich don't work, in fact, they've never worked. And you are not rich, so stop pretending tax cuts affect you. Do you know what happened after the "Conservative Lamb of God," Ronald Reagan, cut the tax rate on the uber-rich from 70% to 27%? The economy went into a deep recession; have you heard, Bush's recession is the worst recession since Reagan's of 1982. Then you know what he did? He raised taxes on everyone except the rich every year thereafter, 1983-1988. Since Reagan couldn't make ends meet, he started borrowing heavily to make the lore surrounding his economic recovery and legacy what it is today with his devotees. And you recall GHWB's infamous promise, "No new taxes."? Do you also remember that he started raising taxes on the middle class for a few years after he took office. Today, the uber rich are "allegedly" taxed at 35%, but we know they don't pay anything near that, since capital gains are taxed at just 15%. How much of your income is made up of capital gains? Besides that, there are always loopholes for the wealth. In the end, they likely pay the same percentage on their taxes as you and I.

You've mentioned "out of control inflation." There are tools to counter inflation. But you must know that deflation is more devestating than inflation, and at this point, we have no apparatus to counter deflation--always a greater concern than inflation.


Fear of the Socialism boogyman by socialism hugging capitalists  ..-)

Get over it you (collective) people! These things are owned by the government. And you and I wouldn't have it any other way. Partial list
* air, water and environmental quality control
* transportation routes, infrastructure
* treasury
* regulation (SEC with teeth, not one whose powers are all but stripped away)
* education (ditto)
* public parks
* airwaves, cable networks, communication systems
* military, police, prisons, fire services
* courts
* social security
* health care (Medicare, Medicade)
* unemployment insurance
* safety nets, including FDIC and bailouts
* corporate welfare, subsidies
* post (almost none can afford FedEx, UPS, etc..)
* your FEMA
* your FDA  (you want standards, don't you?)
* TSA
* port authority
* air traffic control
* IRS

This is important and this is what somehow escapes all of you: Is your government going to make your TV set, your shoes, your clothes, your food, your tooth paste, your car, your PC or laptop, your (fill in the blank)? No, never ever, no one wants that! You people are ridiculously, irrationally afraid of the Socialism Boogyman.

And if people did some homework, they'd conclude that we need Medicare For All. This is important, and why you (collective) can't see it is absurd: Medicare For All would make American industries far more competive if they weren't burdened by having to pay the medical bills of their former employees as well as their current workers. But the big Socialized Medicine Boogyman was put out there by the AMA in the '50s (Ronald Reagan served as their tool) and you (collective) people lose your collective minds. We don't have health care in the US. We have an out-of-control, inefficient, wastefull monstocity of a private market bureaucracy based on "health denial" in which people get stinking, fat-rich. Read, people, the sooner you learn, the sooner we can get rid of the jack-a-lopes in Congress who take a cut of the profits and hold the legislation hostage.

Recommended Reading: Critical Condition: How Health Care in America Became Big Business And Bad Medicine, Donald Bartlett and James Steele
*Yes, I read a lot of dry, non-fiction.

"Oh, but it's the best system in the world; socializing health care would make it worse," you (collective) protest. What part of out-of-control, inefficient, wastefull monstocity of a private market bureaucracy based on "health denial" in which people get stinking, fat-rich don't you (collective) people understand? Socialized Health Care is a far superior system: learn the difference between the current, privitized system and socialized health care, and you (collective), too, will agree.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 03:43:41 PM by Babblelot »
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Online Babblelot

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2009, 05:53:14 PM »
Trimming Dmast's Porkpie (because he knows what in there)

* One Republican-proposed document outlined proposed cuts of more than $85 billion. Most of that — $60 billion — would come from money Democrats want to send to the states to avoid budget cuts for schools as well as law enforcement and other programs.

:applause: Republicans!!! :toot:

Other than that, it looks like the remaining $25 billion will be stripped from the "down payment" on domestic initiatives, including creation of a new health technology industry and so-called green jobs also look lost.

That's all I see, so far, but it's yet to be finalized.
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Online dmastous

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2009, 10:34:22 AM »
Trimming Dmast's Porkpie (because he knows what in there)

* One Republican-proposed document outlined proposed cuts of more than $85 billion. Most of that — $60 billion — would come from money Democrats want to send to the states to avoid budget cuts for schools as well as law enforcement and other programs.

:applause: Republicans!!! :toot:

Other than that, it looks like the remaining $25 billion will be stripped from the "down payment" on domestic initiatives, including creation of a new health technology industry and so-called green jobs also look lost.

That's all I see, so far, but it's yet to be finalized.


It does not good to sensationalilze various aspects of politics. Polititians do it to get support and votes, and money for their campaigns. What good is it here? If you want to spin things to make yourself sound smarter, go ahead and keep spouting into a vacuum.
Here's the text the bill as of Jan 29th, if you've got a number of hours without much to do:

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1/text

Is a tree as a rocking horse
An ambition fulfilled
And is the sawdust jealous?
I worry about these things .

Kevin Godley & Lol Crème (I Pity Inanimate Objects)

Online Babblelot

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 10:59:43 AM »
Trimming Dmast's Porkpie (because he knows what in there)

* One Republican-proposed document outlined proposed cuts of more than $85 billion. Most of that — $60 billion — would come from money Democrats want to send to the states to avoid budget cuts for schools as well as law enforcement and other programs.

:applause: Republicans!!! :toot:

Other than that, it looks like the remaining $25 billion will be stripped from the "down payment" on domestic initiatives, including creation of a new health technology industry and so-called green jobs also look lost.

That's all I see, so far, but it's yet to be finalized.


It does not good to sensationalilze various aspects of politics. Polititians do it to get support and votes, and money for their campaigns. What good is it here? If you want to spin things to make yourself sound smarter, go ahead and keep spouting into a vacuum.
Here's the text the bill as of Jan 29th, if you've got a number of hours without much to do:

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1/text


What's with the non sequitur? You stopped making sense. I wasn't trying to sound smart. I was just stating what was reportedly whacked from the package so far. I can't help it if that makes you feel dumb.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 11:05:09 AM by Babblelot »
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2009, 06:02:51 AM »
Speaking of porkpie, have you read the details of the package? :rofl_2:

As I've said before the basic concept behind the program is what dooms it-  the credit mentality.
Nothing is being produced or gained, just shuffling some money around.
Actually, that's been the President's plan all along, redistribution.  He now has a blank check to do so courtesy of the economic state.
Funny how the mantra of 'hope and change' has changed to one of 'desparation and fear'.  That didn't take long. :(

Follow along here if you dare.
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/lou-dobbs-pork-in-obama-stimulus-package/4066285652/?icid=VIDURVNWS05

Though work will get done, real jobs are not being created.

Step back, take a deep breath and analyze this package before it gets shoved down our throats.
CONK da ball!!!

Online Babblelot

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2009, 10:39:19 AM »
NASA  ..-)  Total pork and that, naturally, was the biggest  ..-) ..-)  Their criticism is just, and I agree, you can't trust this Congress to do due diligence.

Anyway, it sounds like they've done their homework. If you read my long post (BWAAAAHHHH  :rofl_2: :laugh-bounce: :hysterical:   you'd see that their criticism is based on the same criticism of FDR's New Deal--it created jobs, but not sustainable jobs. But, including NASA, they've only examined 5 programs to date that will produce "shovel ready" jobs, which are needed; people need to be working now, too.

I'm not getting my panties in a bunch over that report. Let's see what else they uncover.

Let's not forget, this is not the fianl bill. Changes will be made in the House.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 02:19:28 PM by Babblelot »
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Offline huntingyou

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2009, 11:09:46 PM »
Note: I apologize for all the edits, but I wanted to add more beef to my arguement when I had found time.



From what I understand, it will pass Friday. Again, I'm holding my breath over what will get whacked.

Holding your breath, does this mean you want it to pass?

F-YES I do!

So you will put you faith in the government to prop things up.



The juggernaut is not tax cuts (haven't you heard, they've never worked). This recovery package will be driven by public works projects. Sheesh, tax cuts?!

Putting the money back in the people's pockets so they can go buy things, and start business, and support the economy is the basis of a capitalistic free enterprise system. Taking the money out of our pockets to pay for government projects is the basis for a socialist government controlled system.
Sure we don't trust the rich fat cat CEOs to be socially aware. They are proving everyday they don't care. But they have never cared. They didn't care when it was the robber barons of the 18th century or the 19th century or now. But the system always rights itself. The government, with this "stimulus packege" is just getting in the way. Delaying the inevitable. The system will right itself, and the longer we delay that from happening, the worst that correction will be.
The alternative is everybody works for the government, and the government tells us what to do, how to do it, and when to do it. That is the direction Obama is taking us. And you are all on board. Hope you enjoy the ride.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. That's what's gotten in your (collective) heads, that's where the fear arises, that's why folks who rail against big govt get away with creating the most intrusive and biggest governments and untempered deficits (very Ted Haggardesque).

Know your history and your ecomomics: how did the government break the back of the wealth inequality of the gilded age, and create the strongest middle class, and manufacturing (i.e., labor) based economy to date, all of which was implemented before WWII (but actually wasn't enough, more should have been done to create sustainable employemnt)? The gilded age and post-gilded age America is our model: learn it.

What have we learned from "free markets"? You (collective) have not learned a damn thing. Deregulation leads to bubbles, creates extreme wealth and poverty, and the bubbles ultimately burst. Then the government has to clean up the mess. Capitalistic banks and financial institutions are begging the government to bail them out, and the "free market" wonks (lol) are Johnny-on-the-spot to bail their buddies out. In the meantime, jobs go to the lowest bidder (overseas), and so, too, do tax havens! Why? Profits, to break organized labor, and profits. That's your system, bud.

What's more, tax cuts for the rich don't work, in fact, they've never worked. And you are not rich, so stop pretending tax cuts affect you. Do you know what happened after the "Conservative Lamb of God," Ronald Reagan, cut the tax rate on the uber-rich from 70% to 27%? The economy went into a deep recession; have you heard, Bush's recession is the worst recession since Reagan's of 1982. Then you know what he did? He raised taxes on everyone except the rich every year thereafter, 1983-1988. Since Reagan couldn't make ends meet, he started borrowing heavily to make the lore surrounding his economic recovery and legacy what it is today with his devotees. And you recall GHWB's infamous promise, "No new taxes."? Do you also remember that he started raising taxes on the middle class for a few years after he took office. Today, the uber rich are "allegedly" taxed at 35%, but we know they don't pay anything near that, since capital gains are taxed at just 15%. How much of your income is made up of capital gains? Besides that, there are always loopholes for the wealth. In the end, they likely pay the same percentage on their taxes as you and I.

You've mentioned "out of control inflation." There are tools to counter inflation. But you must know that deflation is more devestating than inflation, and at this point, we have no apparatus to counter deflation--always a greater concern than inflation.


Fear of the Socialism boogyman by socialism hugging capitalists  ..-)

Get over it you (collective) people! These things are owned by the government. And you and I wouldn't have it any other way. Partial list
* air, water and environmental quality control
* transportation routes, infrastructure
* treasury
* regulation (SEC with teeth, not one whose powers are all but stripped away)
* education (ditto)
* public parks
* airwaves, cable networks, communication systems
* military, police, prisons, fire services
* courts
* social security
* health care (Medicare, Medicade)
* unemployment insurance
* safety nets, including FDIC and bailouts
* corporate welfare, subsidies
* post (almost none can afford FedEx, UPS, etc..)
* your FEMA
* your FDA  (you want standards, don't you?)
* TSA
* port authority
* air traffic control
* IRS

This is important and this is what somehow escapes all of you: Is your government going to make your TV set, your shoes, your clothes, your food, your tooth paste, your car, your PC or laptop, your (fill in the blank)? No, never ever, no one wants that! You people are ridiculously, irrationally afraid of the Socialism Boogyman.

And if people did some homework, they'd conclude that we need Medicare For All. This is important, and why you (collective) can't see it is absurd: Medicare For All would make American industries far more competive if they weren't burdened by having to pay the medical bills of their former employees as well as their current workers. But the big Socialized Medicine Boogyman was put out there by the AMA in the '50s (Ronald Reagan served as their tool) and you (collective) people lose your collective minds. We don't have health care in the US. We have an out-of-control, inefficient, wastefull monstocity of a private market bureaucracy based on "health denial" in which people get stinking, fat-rich. Read, people, the sooner you learn, the sooner we can get rid of the jack-a-lopes in Congress who take a cut of the profits and hold the legislation hostage.

Recommended Reading: Critical Condition: How Health Care in America Became Big Business And Bad Medicine, Donald Bartlett and James Steele
*Yes, I read a lot of dry, non-fiction.

"Oh, but it's the best system in the world; socializing health care would make it worse," you (collective) protest. What part of out-of-control, inefficient, wastefull monstocity of a private market bureaucracy based on "health denial" in which people get stinking, fat-rich don't you (collective) people understand? Socialized Health Care is a far superior system: learn the difference between the current, privitized system and socialized health care, and you (collective), too, will agree.

You just OWNED the entire board for the next million years..............the information is there; reading instead of repeating what the loonies in Bleck, Rush, Hanity, Ann and all those mentally challenge puke in the airwaves is the way to go.

Go Bab! ://

Offline monstertruck

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2009, 02:22:28 PM »
Funny, I didn't think having an intelligent discussion involved trying to 'own' anybody....... :whistle:

I surely don't form my opinions based on info provided by the talking heads.
I read through the package as presented on the web sites of the White House and Congress.

I didn't see any provisions for a single job to last longer than the money provided by the stim pkg itself.

Personally, I'm not in favor of increasing the national debt to provide folks with temporary jobs.
The basic concept behind the bailouts is flawed.
Robbing Peter to pay Paul is illogical.  Unless of course, your name is Paul.
CONK da ball!!!

Offline Pacer

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2009, 03:33:12 PM »
It's consumption vs. investment. Republicans are completely wrongheaded with their insistence on adding more tax cuts, as if we don't have enough already. Tax cuts aren't even all that stimulative, far less stimulative than direct spending and investment. Consumer confidence is at an all time low, which would make more tax cuts even less stimulative. I love how Republicans continue to remind me of why I voted for Obama.

Ugh, I tried so hard to stay I way, but I caved today. :rofl_2:

I'm loving Babble's post above. ;-()
Ralphie: I want an official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifle! <br /><br />Mrs. Parker: No, you\'ll shoot your eye out.

Offline monstertruck

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Re: Obama turns up the heat on his stimulus package.
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2009, 03:52:27 PM »
It's consumption vs. investment. Republicans are completely wrongheaded with their insistence on adding more tax cuts, as if we don't have enough already. Tax cuts aren't even all that stimulative, far less stimulative than direct spending and investment. Consumer confidence is at an all time low, which would make more tax cuts even less stimulative. I love how Republicans continue to remind me of why I voted for Obama.

Ugh, I tried so hard to stay I way, but I caved today. :rofl_2:

I'm loving Babble's post above. ;-()
You are forgiven. ;-()

I don't think tax cuts are the answer either.
Why on earth would the gov send me back the money I sent them?  They said they absolutely, positively had to have it.  Now all of the sudden they don't need it? :rofl_2:

Word to the wise, I always double check my math when I come up with the same answer as Bubbles. :)~ ;-()
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 03:53:48 PM by monstertruck »
CONK da ball!!!