Topic: 2009 OFFICIAL FRENCH OPEN THREAD - ATP

[Babblelot]

The only way for Federer to be a worthy GOAT candidate of any degree would be to:

-Win atleast 2 Calender Slams
-Wins slams over a 12 year span/13 year stretch so win atleast 1 slam in 2015
-Gain a winning head to head with his main rival Nadal in slams, so gain atleast 5 more wins vs Rafa in slams than Nadal can on him
-Beats Nadal in a French Open final atleast once
-End the year ranked #1 atleast 3 more times
-Gains a winning head to head with Murray, not even strictly the slams is good enough in this case but overall

If he achieves this it would put him in the conversation with Laver, Sampras, Rosewall, Gonzales, and Borg.  Right now he is in the second tier with people like Tilden, Budge, Kramer, and Perry; just above the 3rd tier of Lendl, Connors, McEnroe, Cochet, LaCoste.

You keep telling yourself that  Honestly, that's the funniest thing I've seen today

That was pretty funny And after all that Roger will be asked to pee champagne and poop gold bullion.

Think about it.  Kittens wants Roger to win minimum 22 slams, to be considered in the conversation!!

Shankar, are you logging in under kittens account?

kittens was just trolling for knuckleheads. Think about it.

[FreeBird]

As they say...what a day!  2009 - a year that most would peg as in the heart of Rafa's prime, and in Fed's twilight - sees Fed win the French.  Who would've thought this was possible at all, even just 4 short months ago, after Rafa took a hardcourt major final from Fed?  But this goes to show why some of us always feel the need to mock the "it's 100% certain" crowd.  As they are also known to say:  "I told you so!".  And I really do mean that in a friendly way!

I think what this shows more than anything else is Fed's remarkable consistency.  I'm pretty stingy with the GOAT descriptor, and I don't quite think Fed has earned it at this point.  But I feel quite a bit more confident saying that he's the most consistent player of all time - consistently beating "lesser quality" opponents, especially in majors.

I certainly hope Rafa is able to make a quick and full recovery from whatever is currently ailing him, because I don't want to see him less than 100% to defend his Wimby title!!

[tennisfan78]

Let's just talk about Del Potro overall.  It seems like he's going to step it up and turn it into a battle between the Top 5, not just Top 4.  Another character enters the fray.  Good times.

Dpotro has very good mental strength, I noticed it when he beat Nadal recently and of course friday in the semis.

Just a matter of time to include him at the top if not now.

Around the UO of last year I thought it would be Cilic making some noise.

Yeah Del Potro seems to be on the right track. He has been consistent and very impressive. I hope he continues to play well. As you have mentioned he seems to have the mental strength and is not too worried to face the big guys/occasions.

[tennisfan78]

Fed is the GOAT in my book.....

And that girly in your avatar is the GOAT in mine

Oh yes, Allison Stokke. I believe I can find her on campus here...LOL 

She is cute. I was wondering who she was all this time. Thanks for sharing the info 

Nice avatar jeffrx

[dmastous]

As they say...what a day!  2009 - a year that most would peg as in the heart of Rafa's prime, and in Fed's twilight - sees Fed win the French.  Who would've thought this was possible at all, even just 4 short months ago, after Rafa took a hardcourt major final from Fed?  But this goes to show why some of us always feel the need to mock the "it's 100% certain" crowd.  As they are also known to say:  "I told you so!".  And I really do mean that in a friendly way!

I think what this shows more than anything else is Fed's remarkable consistency.  I'm pretty stingy with the GOAT descriptor, and I don't quite think Fed has earned it at this point.  But I feel quite a bit more confident saying that he's the most consistent player of all time - consistently beating "lesser quality" opponents, especially in majors.

I certainly hope Rafa is able to make a quick and full recovery from whatever is currently ailing him, because I don't want to see him less than 100% to defend his Wimby title!!

I think whatever is ailing Nadal is the same thing that has been ailing him each of the last two years just after Wimbledon. Only this year it's a month earlier, and according to reports, a bit more serious. It's just the wear and tear on his body from the way he plays.
I hope he is fit enough for Wimbledon to get a chance to defend his crown. But I wonder at what point he will begin to think about following the Muster schedule and skip all but the biggest hard court events. Maybe even pay the fine and skip Indian Wells and Miami too.

[Predator]

The only way for Federer to be a worthy GOAT candidate of any degree would be to:

-Win atleast 2 Calender Slams
-Wins slams over a 12 year span/13 year stretch so win atleast 1 slam in 2015
-Gain a winning head to head with his main rival Nadal in slams, so gain atleast 5 more wins vs Rafa in slams than Nadal can on him
-Beats Nadal in a French Open final atleast once
-End the year ranked #1 atleast 3 more times
-Gains a winning head to head with Murray, not even strictly the slams is good enough in this case but overall

If he achieves this it would put him in the conversation with Laver, Sampras, Rosewall, Gonzales, and Borg.  Right now he is in the second tier with people like Tilden, Budge, Kramer, and Perry; just above the 3rd tier of Lendl, Connors, McEnroe, Cochet, LaCoste.

That's hilarious...

You are hilarious if you are the Administrator here? Federer fans are crazier than I actually thought. Kittens25 has put forth a genuine task for Federer if he wants to become the indisputable GOAT and I totally agree with him even if he seems slightly outrageous. You guys are funny. What for is Federer the GOAT now? For defeating the mentally strongest players in the history in the form of Haas, Acasuso, Monfils, Delpotro, Soderling to win the coveted French Open? For defeating the legends in the game like Roddick, Hewitt in multiple slam finals and semifinals? For defeating multiple slam wonders and certain all time greats like Gonzalez, Baghdatis and Soderling in slam finals? For dominating the main opponent Nadal 13-7 in head to head and crushing him in 3 French finals and one Semi? For beating his main rival Nadal on all surfaces in slams? For dominating the up and coming Andy Murray 7-2?  For majestically restricting Nadal from expanding his territory to other surfaces? For making Nadal cry like a 5 year old kid in front of the Australian crowd?

For what?

[Predator]

Rod Laver is by far the greatest ever. Period.

[Predator]

What Kittens25 essentially means with all the tasks that he has come up with for Federer to become the GOAT is, the ultimate test of domination and longevity. Something on which I agree with him. If You can dominate or defeat anyone anywhere, that is a big plus in my book. Look, it is Federer who allowed Nadal to grow in front of him and surpass him on Clay. It is hilarious how people take it for granted and declare Nadal the greatest ever on Clay. A guy like Soderling comes out of no where and shows Federer how to do it. You talk as if no one in the history has any chance against Nadal on Clay. Now by that conclusion, what should I infer? Federer is greater than Borg, Lendl, Laver etc on Clay? What sort of rubbish is that?

Look, I am not a big fan of any of these modern day players but I cannot imagine a GOAT being dominated by all the 3 of his main rivals. Djokovic, maybe I will give Federer the credit there for beating him quite a few times. But Nadal did beat Federer on all the surfaces in slams and Murray literally owns him in 3 set tennis and he is still a developing player. Federer is still far from being GOAT, Laver is the best followed by Sampras and then Borg in my opinion. Kittens25 could be true, Federer and Nadal belong to the 2nd string of great players up until now.

[dmastous]

The only way for Federer to be a worthy GOAT candidate of any degree would be to:

-Win atleast 2 Calender Slams
-Wins slams over a 12 year span/13 year stretch so win atleast 1 slam in 2015
-Gain a winning head to head with his main rival Nadal in slams, so gain atleast 5 more wins vs Rafa in slams than Nadal can on him
-Beats Nadal in a French Open final atleast once
-End the year ranked #1 atleast 3 more times
-Gains a winning head to head with Murray, not even strictly the slams is good enough in this case but overall

If he achieves this it would put him in the conversation with Laver, Sampras, Rosewall, Gonzales, and Borg.  Right now he is in the second tier with people like Tilden, Budge, Kramer, and Perry; just above the 3rd tier of Lendl, Connors, McEnroe, Cochet, LaCoste.

That's hilarious...

You are hilarious if you are the Administrator here? Federer fans are crazier than I actually thought. Kittens25 has put forth a genuine task for Federer if he wants to become the indisputable GOAT and I totally agree with him even if he seems slightly outrageous. You guys are funny. What for is Federer the GOAT now? For defeating the mentally strongest players in the history in the form of Haas, Acasuso, Monfils, Delpotro, Soderling to win the coveted French Open? For defeating the legends in the game like Roddick, Hewitt in multiple slam finals and semifinals? For defeating multiple slam wonders and certain all time greats like Gonzalez, Baghdatis and Soderling in slam finals? For dominating the main opponent Nadal 13-7 in head to head and crushing him in 3 French finals and one Semi? For beating his main rival Nadal on all surfaces in slams? For dominating the up and coming Andy Murray 7-2?  For majestically restricting Nadal from expanding his territory to other surfaces? For making Nadal cry like a 5 year old kid in front of the Australian crowd?

For what?

So let's see if I understand you here. Administrators are not allowed to have an opinion? Or at least not an opinion that's contrary to yours? He is hilarious because he's the admin here, and has that opinion?
I'm not going to make the case for Federer being the greatest because I don't think he is, nor do I think he ever will be. Nor will Nadal, nor is Laver. There is simply no way to compare Federer with Laver or Budge, or any other past champion, and we have no idea who will rise up in 10 or 20 years. The game has changed too much since then, and will continue to evolve. To say that one player is the greatest of all time is ludicrous on it's face. But to call out T4Y because he's the admin and he expresses his opinion is also ludicrous.

[Bazcovic]

Rod Laver is by far the greatest ever. Period.

What Kittens25 essentially means with all the tasks that he has come up with for Federer to become the GOAT is, the ultimate test of domination and longevity. Something on which I agree with him. If You can dominate or defeat anyone anywhere, that is a big plus in my book. Look, it is Federer who allowed Nadal to grow in front of him and surpass him on Clay. It is hilarious how people take it for granted and declare Nadal the greatest ever on Clay. A guy like Soderling comes out of no where and shows Federer how to do it. You talk as if no one in the history has any chance against Nadal on Clay. Now by that conclusion, what should I infer? Federer is greater than Borg, Lendl, Laver etc on Clay? What sort of rubbish is that?

Look, I am not a big fan of any of these modern day players but I cannot imagine a GOAT being dominated by all the 3 of his main rivals. Djokovic, maybe I will give Federer the credit there for beating him quite a few times. But Nadal did beat Federer on all the surfaces in slams and Murray literally owns him in 3 set tennis and he is still a developing player. Federer is still far from being GOAT, Laver is the best followed by Sampras and then Borg in my opinion. Kittens25 could be true, Federer and Nadal belong to the 2nd string of great players up until now.

- Rod Laver didn't had any negative records vs. top players?
- Was utterly dominant? Please consider the timegap between his 2 Slams.
- Huh, Samprass & Borg > Federer? Please explain: Borg & Longevity? He retired after Johnny Mac got the better of him a couple of time in Major finals. He made 3 unsuccesfull comebacks in 1991 through 1993....
 

Taking everything into consideration, I don't know if Federer is the greatest of all time. Some of his achievement really are, but some are not. It's also hard to compare those different eras.
Same goes for Samprass, Laver, Emmo, Borg etc etc etc. It's hard to name one....... Especially when comming up with those out of range arguments!

[Somil]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_held_by_Roger_Federer

[Somil]

Basically my point with that ^^^ was to show that despite the GOAT conversation being silly, Federer has probably achieved more than anyone else in the history of tennis.

[kittens25]

- Rod Laver didn't had any negative records vs. top players?

Actually he didnt and this is pretty much a fact.   Rosewall, Gonzales, Hoad, Ashe, Newcombe, Emerson, Kodes, Smith, Gimeno, Roche, none of them has a winning head to head with Laver.   The only examples are Borg and Connors who played Laver in the mid 70s when he was already in his mid-late 30s.   

- Was utterly dominant? Please consider the timegap between his 2 Slams.

He was pro and barred from the then "amateur" circuit (which is now the pro circuit) and thus playing any slams from 1963 to 1967.  The best players were all pro and he completely dominated pros from 1964 to 1967, and now Open tennis in 1968 and 1969.

- Huh, Samprass & Borg > Federer? Please explain: Borg & Longevity? He retired after Johnny Mac got the better of him a couple of time in Major finals. He made 3 unsuccesfull comebacks in 1991 through 1993....

Borg started winning at only 18 though.   So he still has longevity, 1974 to 1981 he was a champion.  Federer has almost matched that already though.   Sampras though was on top of mens tennis from 1993-2000, and was atleast in slam finals ever from 1992 to 2002.   

[mav140]

The only way for Federer to be a worthy GOAT candidate of any degree would be to:

-Win atleast 2 Calender Slams
-Wins slams over a 12 year span/13 year stretch so win atleast 1 slam in 2015
-Gain a winning head to head with his main rival Nadal in slams, so gain atleast 5 more wins vs Rafa in slams than Nadal can on him
-Beats Nadal in a French Open final atleast once
-End the year ranked #1 atleast 3 more times
-Gains a winning head to head with Murray, not even strictly the slams is good enough in this case but overall

If he achieves this it would put him in the conversation with Laver, Sampras, Rosewall, Gonzales, and Borg.  Right now he is in the second tier with people like Tilden, Budge, Kramer, and Perry; just above the 3rd tier of Lendl, Connors, McEnroe, Cochet, LaCoste.

Sorry kittens.. but you are placing Sampras above Roger?? when Sampras never cared for clay, doesn't have a title at RG?? I think you are misleading some here... Let's put it this way.. Sampras never had a rivalry vs. a clay courter.. why?? Cause he never won a major title on clay, hence, he never had a rivalry with pure clay courters in his time... he only got to the round of 16th or even his ONLY SF at Roland Garros.. Fed has made 4 finals at RG because he is the 2nd. best clay courter in HIS era.. Sampras wouldn't even be considered top 10 material on clay... and you are placing him above Fed?? That's a double standard argument... IF Sampras would have gone to 4 finals (and consecutive finals at that) and lost each one of them to probably the best clay courter of all times, then you wouldn't be saying these things!!! Truth is Sampras never cared for clay, hence not even 1 final at RG... I mean, come one.. you are a tennis historian you of all people should know that Fed vs. Rafa H2H goes specifically on the side of Rafa cause they have played mostly on clay... if you took out clay out of the equation, you would have a 5-4 lead for Roger... so, by your standards, this H2H would be the one to take into consideration IF you place Pete as a possible GOAT.. why?? Cause Sampras was NEVER a threat on clay, never managed to reach a final at RG, have just 1 SF at RG, lost to NOBODIES at RG, except for that SF... Put it this way, you say Agassi is probably one of the most overrated players... BUT if Sampras would have played vs. Agassi on clay several times, the H2H between those 2 would be even closer or even tied, cause Sampras never had a shot on clay vs. mostly anybody.. and we would be talking that the only reason Agassi was  closer to Pete in their H2H would be because they played a lot of matches on clay...

I don't believe I am going to say this, but you are coming out a little biased in my opinion...

You give your reasons for being a GOAT, but you are not respecting his achievements either...

He just tied Pete Sampras for 14 majors... FED has a Career Grand Slam (Pete doesn't), FED has 20 SF in a row, who has that???, He has been in 4 finals at RG, how many did Pete achieved?, He has won 5 wimby's in a row, 5 USOs in a row, consecutive number of weeks at #1, a lot of more feats... and you are just dismissing this... why?? your old "weak" era argument? I mean, come on...

[kittens25]

Sampras is inferior to Federer on clay but lets be fair about a few things.

-He won Rome on clay, the 2nd biggest clay court event, and he won Davis Cup on clay.   Two things Roger has never done.

-He beat Muster, Bruguera, and Courier at the French, bigger wins than Roger has yet had there.

[mav140]

The only way for Federer to be a worthy GOAT candidate of any degree would be to:

-Win atleast 2 Calender Slams
-Wins slams over a 12 year span/13 year stretch so win atleast 1 slam in 2015
-Gain a winning head to head with his main rival Nadal in slams, so gain atleast 5 more wins vs Rafa in slams than Nadal can on him
-Beats Nadal in a French Open final atleast once
-End the year ranked #1 atleast 3 more times
-Gains a winning head to head with Murray, not even strictly the slams is good enough in this case but overall

If he achieves this it would put him in the conversation with Laver, Sampras, Rosewall, Gonzales, and Borg.  Right now he is in the second tier with people like Tilden, Budge, Kramer, and Perry; just above the 3rd tier of Lendl, Connors, McEnroe, Cochet, LaCoste.

I highlighted the parts where you are considering necessary for FED to be GOAT and wondered wth????

you say he has to win at least 2 Calendar Slams... 2 years ago, everybody said if he won 1 calendar slam that would be it, now have everybody raised their standards?

why does he has to have not 1 but 2 Grand Slams, when Pete doesn't even have one? by your Standards and if you were objective, then Pete wouldn't have to be in your first list, he would be in your second tier group.. is that cause you are still with your "weak" era argument? or because you just like Pete so much? I mean, come on!! when is people going to give Fed his due??

He has the record for number of weeks at #1, but no.. that is not good enough, he has to have 3 more times an end year #1? what rules are that? I mean, you get by your own standards... I KNOW your standards doesn't mean anything, its just your opinion, but again.. why do you have to diminish most of the achievements Fed has done?

As for your H2H vs. Nadal, I already explained it in my previous post..

But you know what?? at the end of the day this won't matter anymore.. he will go down as one of the best tennis player to ever played the game... SUPERIOR to Sampras in the future with his 4 finals at RG and 1 title at RG and 1 Career (some of the things Pete never did), and will be still questioned between Laver and Fed, nothing more.. probably Laver, Borg, Rosewall and Fed will be the future discussion over who is the real GOAT... it doesn't matter.. as Dallas said: Fed is HER GOAT... as for you, well, its probably another player.. its just a matter of opinion..

[mav140]

Sampras is inferior to Federer on clay but lets be fair about a few things.

-He won Rome on clay, the 2nd biggest clay court event, and he won Davis Cup on clay.   Two things Roger has never done.

-He beat Muster, Bruguera, and Courier at the French, bigger wins than Roger has yet had there.

So what?? He won Rome... the 2nd. biggest clay court event, but did he manage to reach a ROLAND GARROS F?? no!! did he had any chance to take the title?? no.. did he reach 4 consecutive finals at RG? no.. you said he beat Muster, Bruguera and Courier at the french.. I like Fed's chances against either of those 3... as for Nadal, he would have bageled Courier and Muster, Bruguera should be interesting, but nothing more.. Nadal >>>>>>> than Muster, Bruguera and Courier on clay...

Roger has reached 4 finals at RG, 1 title at RG, Hamburg 3 times, reached Rome finals only to lose to probably the best clay courter in tennis history... yeah, he hasn't won Rome... but it SEEMS Roland Garros is more important to Rome??   besides having multiple MS shields from clay (Hamburg)... Come on...

as for never winning the Davis Cup.. I mean, this is laughable at best... Come on kittens... Davis Cup is a team sport, not an individual.. sure it helped Pete having Agassi, Chang, Courier???   after all, all he could do was to win both his matches... well, Roger does that everytime Siwtzerland plays.. so, Fed should be really bad at tennis when he wins everything he has won, wins his matches at the Davis Cup only to have an inferior team playing with him... sure, he should have won the Davis Cup by now... come on... not reasonably...

[mav140]

Anyway, everybody is right... no need to keep on discussing this never-ending GOAT discussion... I don't EVEN care if anyone considers Roger, Sampras, Laver or Borg  the GOAT.. The GOAT for everybody can change from 1 mind to another.. so what's the point? For me... the GOAT is or would be between Sampras, Laver and Roger.. no one more.. I would have liked to put Rosewall, Gonzalez or even Budge on this list..  but we can't REALLY know or compare these players... that is why, even when I am a real FED fan, I am not 100% sure he is the best of all time,  cause we can't travel through time and make them play each other although that would be nice!!! so... kittens.. no need to reply to my other posts... don't want to keep on having this discussion

[monstertruck]

I think the whole goat conversation is a complete waste of time, and energy.

I agree.
who is the greatest female tennis player of all time?  And the best male player?
It’s very relative and I wouldn’t like to say this one or that one.  They’re different times and there are too many great names to settle on just one.
its like discussing which is the best major:  all four are really great and I like them all.

I personally find it insulting to try and pick one player to be GOAT......it seems to diminish the people and their accomplishments that set the standards for others to reach. We get into these discussions on the boxing forum I am a member on; and it's just ludicrous to try and pick an all time great; everyone brings something different to the table. Evolution of the game is all that matters imo.

That and chili, of course.

[monstertruck]

The only way for Federer to be a worthy GOAT candidate of any degree would be to:

-Win atleast 2 Calender Slams
-Wins slams over a 12 year span/13 year stretch so win atleast 1 slam in 2015
-Gain a winning head to head with his main rival Nadal in slams, so gain atleast 5 more wins vs Rafa in slams than Nadal can on him
-Beats Nadal in a French Open final atleast once
-End the year ranked #1 atleast 3 more times
-Gains a winning head to head with Murray, not even strictly the slams is good enough in this case but overall

If he achieves this it would put him in the conversation with Laver, Sampras, Rosewall, Gonzales, and Borg.  Right now he is in the second tier with people like Tilden, Budge, Kramer, and Perry; just above the 3rd tier of Lendl, Connors, McEnroe, Cochet, LaCoste.

That's hilarious...

You are hilarious if you are the Administrator here? Federer fans are crazier than I actually thought. Kittens25 has put forth a genuine task for Federer if he wants to become the indisputable GOAT and I totally agree with him even if he seems slightly outrageous. You guys are funny. What for is Federer the GOAT now? For defeating the mentally strongest players in the history in the form of Haas, Acasuso, Monfils, Delpotro, Soderling to win the coveted French Open? For defeating the legends in the game like Roddick, Hewitt in multiple slam finals and semifinals? For defeating multiple slam wonders and certain all time greats like Gonzalez, Baghdatis and Soderling in slam finals? For dominating the main opponent Nadal 13-7 in head to head and crushing him in 3 French finals and one Semi? For beating his main rival Nadal on all surfaces in slams? For dominating the up and coming Andy Murray 7-2?  For majestically restricting Nadal from expanding his territory to other surfaces? For making Nadal cry like a 5 year old kid in front of the Australian crowd?

For what?

So let's see if I understand you here. Administrators are not allowed to have an opinion? Or at least not an opinion that's contrary to yours? He is hilarious because he's the admin here, and has that opinion?
I'm not going to make the case for Federer being the greatest because I don't think he is, nor do I think he ever will be. Nor will Nadal, nor is Laver. There is simply no way to compare Federer with Laver or Budge, or any other past champion, and we have no idea who will rise up in 10 or 20 years. The game has changed too much since then, and will continue to evolve. To say that one player is the greatest of all time is ludicrous on it's face. But to call out T4Y because he's the admin and he expresses his opinion is also ludicrous.

***  Enter The Voice of Reason  ****