Topic: What have we gotten ourselves into?

[Babblelot]

Man!  Bakes was logged in here on my computer again    

 

 I was like     NO WAY! I've never seen Scooter put more than a paragraph into a single post!

[kickserve]

There wasn't really any significant event that tipped me over the edge, part of it was probably the realisation of the abuse of religion that had occured over the centuries and how mnay people had vested interests in the spread of religion, partly just realising that I had never seen anything to suggest it was likely that God exists. Even now, I wouldn't say it's out of the question that God exists. I just think it's one of millions of possible explanations, none of which there are sufficient evidence for (and I include in those possibilities things like the Matrix as being equally likely as the existence of God) and even under the umbrella of God existing, that's split into millions of different interpretations of how many Gods, what God believes in, and the most likley in my mind of them is that God doesn't bother with an afterlife at all. In my mind I'd say there's about a 1% chance of God existing, and of that, about 10% chance of an afterlife existing.

I can't even pretend to understand what you mean by a relationship with God, if I have voices in my head I seek help   but maybe they're a bit different from what I'm imagining  

Who wrote the Bible? Men. It's not the word of God, it's what men thought the word of God was (or imho, what they wanted it to be). Hence the invention of 'heaven' came not from God, but from what (insert whoever wrote the relevant chapters of the Bible) claimed God had told him, but given the vested interests of people wanting to persuade others of the existence of God, and the obvious effectiveness of the idea of heaven in 'persuading' the masses to comply, I'm more than a little skeptical about where the idea of heaven came from.

Also, can you explain to me some of the contradictions in the bible?

(1) God is supposed to be omnipotent, yet also says he is "a jealous God" - is jealousy not a sin?
(2) All the suffering that goes on in the world, God is either unable or unwilling to prevent, in either case he is not omnipotent.
(3)The 10 commandments, as I understand, Moses allegedly found them on a rock, read them to the Jews and believed that God had writen them? Nobody saw how Moses found the stone, and he read the inscriptions to a group of illiterate slaves, yet this is supposed to be historically valid enough to base Christian morality on? The 10 commandments are the word of Moses, whether he got them from God or not is.....questionnable.

[Tennis4you]

Yeah, hearing the voice of God is one of those tough ones for me too.  I am not nearly as open to it as my wife, I am light years behind her in many categories when it comes to this subject.  My relationship with Christ is far more of a struggle than hers.  I believe it comes to some a lot easier than it comes to others.  I also think those who are able to let go of control will be able to have a closer relationship in the end.

There have been a few times that I felt like I have heard from God, if I wanted to or not.  Being it confessing something, doing something, giving something up, etc.  I try not to ignore those times but I am sure I have missed a ton of them since I was not always seeking His guidance.

This is an overall tough subject for me.  I wish I did not struggle with this as much as I do.  My brain is always running at full speed.  I often find it tough to get through a short prayer without my mind running elsewhere.  But in the end, I do believe that Christ died for our sins.  I may not live my life like it all the time, but that is my struggle.  And shoot, if I did not believe in God then the only thing I am left with is the random chance that things collided in space and here I am, for now.

[kingskid]

Also, can you explain to me some of the contradictions in the bible?

(1) God is supposed to be omnipotent, yet also says he is "a jealous God" - is jealousy not a sin?
(2) All the suffering that goes on in the world, God is either unable or unwilling to prevent, in either case he is not omnipotent.
(3)The 10 commandments, as I understand, Moses allegedly found them on a rock, read them to the Jews and believed that God had writen them? Nobody saw how Moses found the stone, and he read the inscriptions to a group of illiterate slaves, yet this is supposed to be historically valid enough to base Christian morality on? The 10 commandments are the word of Moses, whether he got them from God or not is.....questionnable.

YOU BET!

1) Jealousy LEADS to sin.  I actually wrestled with jealousy a LOT over the years, much to the dismay of my poor husband.  B/c the previous men in my life (abusers, family members and ex's) all abused me, ignored me or cheated on me I found myself always looking for the plot, waiting for the shoe to drop on me.  This formed into a jealous spirit in me and manifested itself by me "checking up" on my husband or would rise up into a scenario I'd create in my mind like "ooh, if he ever" and heaven forbid I have a cheating dream...those suck.  So back to my point...God is a jealous God, but in the way that he will not share his glory with other gods...and by "gods" that means other man made idols OR things we as individuals put before him (work, people, computer time, shopping, addictions, etc.).  Jealousy itself is not a sin, but it IS the root of sin.  I went looking up all the scriptures regarding jealousy and read the story of Cain and Able.  Cain was jealous that Able's offering to the Lord (the first fruit of his flock - something he did not make himself) was pleasing to God and accepted, but his own (vegetables from his garden that HE created) was rejected.  So he lured his brother out to the fields and murdered him.  If Cain had checked himself with the jealous feelings and went to God with them...things could have been different.  But God uses the suffering in this story as an example to us that 1) we must give from the bounty that God supplies to us and 2) we mustn't let jealousy turn into sin.  I'm sure there are other lessons to be gleened from that story, but this is what I got at the time.

Similarly Anger is not a sin.  You can have righteous anger over a situation where you have been wronged, but if left unchecked it turns into a bitter root that will produce sinful fruit (slander, gossip, murder, thievery, etc.)

(2) All the suffering that goes on in the world, God is either unable or unwilling to prevent, in either case he is not omnipotent.

The suffering in this world is not a result of an impotent Father.  He is omnipotent (all powerful) but bc of Adam and Eve's rebellion in the garden (where life was created to be perfectly in union with Him and how we long for it to be when Christ makes his triumphant return!) there was a separation btwn man and God.  Sin causes that separation even today.  If you feel dirty and unloved and like "what's the point? I'm no good anyway, look at what I do!" then the enemy feeds right into you that that is all true and you can't get close to God b/c of what you do/have done.  That separation is just one turn of the heart, one sincere confession away from the relationship we all desire.  And just as God is real, Satan is real too.  Once a high angel of God's turned prideful over-thrower-of-God wanna be...he was cast out of Heaven and left to try as he will.  I'm sure there are scholars out there who can explain it to us..and I'd love to know...why didn't God just destroy Satan, but I guess I could answer myself by saying "God always has a perfect plan for his children who love him and Satan must be part of the ultimate plan."  I just don't have an answer to that one yet...not that there isn't one.   Why doesn't God intervene?  Why does He allow the innocent to suffer at the hands of the guilty?  Well, that's a mighty big question.  I've found in my own experience as a child who was sexually abused...God has allowed these painful events to occur in my life 1) so that I would draw nearer to Him for safety and value of myself and experience Him as my healer/best friend and 2) so that I would be a light for other women who have been abused and shamed.  Since I've become and adult and found healing in this area there have been NUMEROUS women who have shared their stories with me and I've been able to be a witness to them that yes, there is a way to find restoration and that He CAN heal that bloody, festering wound in your soul.  So at this point in my life I am able to be THANKFUL for the horrid events and hurts in my life.  Without God - that is impossible.  Without God I believe a person can forgive and move on, but somehow he miraculously takes the pain out of it, heals it.  I say the scars are still there, but they don't hurt.  They are a reminder of how powerful and life giving and fulfilling He really is. 

And like I said before, the enemy is real and loose here around us.  There IS a spiritual battle going on for us every single day.  We just need to get intimate and in union with the Father and he'll open our spiritual eyes and other senses to see and feel these things...and also show us the tools we need to fight.  What we do here on earth DOES MATTER.  It's not just skating by under the radar or that we live, die and get eaten by worms.  All believers will give an account of what they did here on earth and what we did for ourselves will burn up to ashes and we'll be left with what we did for Him...and based on those things we will be given authority in Heaven as we rule and reign with Him.

Look...there is a WHOLE lot more to this than you know or think.  I hope you'll research it more.

3)The 10 commandments, as I understand, Moses allegedly found them on a rock, read them to the Jews and believed that God had writen them?

This one is COOL.  The Jews are God's chosen people.  He loves them SOOOO much and has an amazingly forgiving heart toward them.  Because of His great love for the Jew...I love the Jew. As you read the Old Testament you see the big issue.  God gave them miracle after miracle and saved them and saved them and showed his omnipotence to them and they still had a hard, griping, complaining, we want more heart toward God.  So then he sent Jesus as the Messiah they had allll their prophesies pointed to, declared would come...and they STILL had a hard heart.  He didn't fit the mold they thought he should, so they questioned and ignored and eventually crucified Him b/c of their unbelief. 

Now...all the Jews were led out of Egypt by Moses and they met at the Mount Sinai.  The people saw the glory of God at the top of the mountain and in REVERANT fear they said to Moses "we can't go up there!  Are you nuts!?  That's the living God, surely we'd die in his presence.  YOU GO!"  LOL - that's my interpretation.  And so they CHOSE to not be in his glory and to remain a follower of Man and ultimately remained blind.  So Moses goes up and is in His presence where God gave him the commandments for the people of Israel. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2031:18&version=NIV  All the while the people were down below making what? AN IDOL.  Good grief.  It's really good stuff and I find myself having great love for the Jews in Exodus.  Wouldn't I be a lot like them?  I'd HOPE I'd be more like Moses, but honestly...I'm more like the Jews.  And yet HE LOVES US! 

Christian morality should be based on ALL the word of God, not only ten commandments.  Once you start reading the Word it becomes individualized too.  Holy Spirit will make the scriptures personal to you and when you see the evidence of it being real in your OWN life then your faith increases and you want more of it.  The trick is getting yourself into it and making it a habit.  Life is so busy and loud and the elements are against us getting quiet and intimate.

[Babblelot]

I guess I could answer myself by saying "God always has a perfect plan for his children who love him and Satan must be part of the ultimate plan."  I just don't have an answer to that one yet...not that there isn't one.  Why doesn't God intervene?  Why does He allow the innocent to suffer at the hands of the guilty?  Well, that's a mighty big question.  I've found in my own experience as a child who was sexually abused...God has allowed these painful events to occur in my life 1) so that I would draw nearer to Him for safety and value of myself and experience Him as my healer/best friend and 2) so that I would be a light for other women who have been abused and shamed.  

Well, I wasn't expecting to hear that on this mb. But since it's out there, good on you for reaching out to others who've suffered a similar fate.

Having said that, I'm going to unapologetically, but respectfully (even though it might not sound like it), disagree with you.

Your interpretation of this experience--that God is using you as his vehicle--certainly brings you comfort and that has clearly helped you heal. However, it is an unsatisfactory explanation. Speaking from a mountain of experience, you don't need God in your life to support others who've been dealt the same hand as you. Moreover, the outcome is equally satisfying.

Then there's the matter of God sparing you but absolutely devastating others and entire families. The spectrum of sexual abuse, or anything for that matter, is broad. At one end, there's, say, a one time, inappropriate contact. At the other end, there's being held in a dungeon for 24 years and never seeing the light of day. More often than not, the sexually abused becomes an abuser later in life or exhibits some psychological disorder or dependency. And the incidence of suicide by the sexually abused is much higher than that of the general public at large.

IMO, it's an insult to tell victims that God's plan for them was to use them as vehicles of good doings. More than that, it's dangerous.

Respectfully (because I do like you a lot), I'm not buying what Christianity is selling, Christina.

[kingskid]

I certainly understand the spectrum of sexual abuse AND seen the effects of being on the Christian end of dealing with it as well as the non-believing side.  I think it's really a matter of how much a person allows God into that area of their life as to how well it is resolved within the soul. Like I said, a non-believer can walk through the abuse and go through counseling/deal with the emotional scars of what has been done and go on to lead a normal life, but a believer allows God into that dark corner where the root is.  The root can be pulled out and long-lasting victory can be had by all that allow God to do this.  I also believe that God doesn't waste pain, so as we find victory over sins and issues in our lives we, as believers, are called to reach out with our experience and help others.  It gives glory to the Father and that is our purpose here.

I don't feel like I was spare b/c of my faith - although that's possible and certain in Biblical stories and in today's life stories.  Of course there is always a worse case scenario out there, but the emotional torment is real and the unforgiveness and pain and guilt and anger are rooted the same in each abuse survivor.  I wasn't a believer when I was abused and I had to bear all of that on my own as a child.  When I heard what Christ had done and what was available to me with this relationship with him - it was what my soul needed, especially as a child.  But really, how much more does an adult need it?  How much bigger are the wounds and holes in adult lives?  We are just more proned to stomping it down inside and filling the holes with junk.

Ugh...well, I'm not out to save the world here and I'm certainly not a a great apologetic (defender of the beliefs).  I can only give people what I've learned and experienced in my own life.

I have no doubts about what I've learned thus far and I've certainly come across a few goofy things out there that do  not line up with the Scriptures.   Anywho...we've probably beaten this horse enough for now.   I appreciate your respectfulness, Babs.    As always, I'm an open book and willing to chat about most anything. 

[Emma]

When I was 9, I was like Abby only worse. I wouldn't do anything religious. On top of that, I would question his existence nonstop. It was such a fascination of mine that one time I even dreamt God and I told my parents the next morning and they were all dumbfounded and didn't know whether to believe me or not

The only issue we had that day was that Abby did not want to do what she was being made to do.  She also balks at a number of other things we MAKE her do, but it's not as much the THING we make her do that she dislikes as it is the fact that she is being MADE to do it.  I was the same exact way.  If you told me to do something I would inevitably think or say "Dang, why don't you just ASK me to do it instead of forcing me to?"  I just wanted to have some say in it.  Of course having some say in it implies that you have a CHOICE and often kids do not when it comes down to certain things.  She typically wants to go to her AWANA class each week, but gives us trouble when she doesn't have the homework done that is required that night.  So it isn't that she doesn't want to go, it's that she doesn't want to be embarrassed that she doesn't have her homework done.

Emma, a non-believer would rationalize your dream as your sub-conscience just spelling out what your conscience had been thinking about and mulling over for so long.  However, a believer would explain that you have two parts to yourself...your body and your spirit.  It sounds like God spoke to your spirit through a dream.  God spoke to and still speaks to his children through dreams and visions and children are especially sensitive to Him b/c they do not have a lot of other worldly junk to interfere.  The Bible is full of events where God sent angels to deliver messages or spoke directly to people.  There were prophets who had a gift for dreams and visions and that is how God spoke to people.  It's good to keep certain things that God speaks to you all to yourself.  Some things are for sharing and some things are for increasing your faith. 

So is this post from Scott or Scott's wife since they are on each other's computer? Emma confused. 

[Emma]

I believe (ultimately it all boils down to what one believes or chooses to believe) believing in God is a matter of choice and it's given to you as soon as you take the form that of a human being. Then you are given the journey of life, in other words, enough time to go through all sorts of experience to draw your own conclusion. For that reason, younger generation tend not to believe in anything concrete without the supposed "proof", but as life goes on, many tend to change their minds in the later years, as they experience many different things that influence their minds. They do say though that the free will only exists on the initial stage, but once you make a decision and take action on it, anything afterwards becomes inevitable.

When I was 9, I was like Abby only worse. I wouldn't do anything religious. On top of that, I would question his existence nonstop. It was such a fascination of mine that one time I even dreamt God and I told my parents the next morning and they were all dumbfounded and didn't know whether to believe me or not. LOLOLOL! oh well.

I still remember that dream but I never once told anyone what the dream was all about as it was truly mind numbling. So I feel the need to keep it as it is.

So anyway, if I see anyone who doesn't believe in God, I don't worry too much. I believe nature has its way taking care of things and I want to leave it at that. I love arguing about it though because it's so much fun.

 

I don't mind as long as Christians/Muslims stop trying to convert me. 

LOL, you can be such a doofus at times. Anyway, my last boyfriend was Jewish and you will be happy to know that I didn't try to convert him. If we were to have children then I would have totally left it up to the children to choose whatever they felt like choosing. As once a wise man said, there's only one relgion, we just have many versions of it.

[Tennis4you]

When I was 9, I was like Abby only worse. I wouldn't do anything religious. On top of that, I would question his existence nonstop. It was such a fascination of mine that one time I even dreamt God and I told my parents the next morning and they were all dumbfounded and didn't know whether to believe me or not

The only issue we had that day was that Abby did not want to do what she was being made to do.  She also balks at a number of other things we MAKE her do, but it's not as much the THING we make her do that she dislikes as it is the fact that she is being MADE to do it.  I was the same exact way.  If you told me to do something I would inevitably think or say "Dang, why don't you just ASK me to do it instead of forcing me to?"  I just wanted to have some say in it.  Of course having some say in it implies that you have a CHOICE and often kids do not when it comes down to certain things.  She typically wants to go to her AWANA class each week, but gives us trouble when she doesn't have the homework done that is required that night.  So it isn't that she doesn't want to go, it's that she doesn't want to be embarrassed that she doesn't have her homework done.

Emma, a non-believer would rationalize your dream as your sub-conscience just spelling out what your conscience had been thinking about and mulling over for so long.  However, a believer would explain that you have two parts to yourself...your body and your spirit.  It sounds like God spoke to your spirit through a dream.  God spoke to and still speaks to his children through dreams and visions and children are especially sensitive to Him b/c they do not have a lot of other worldly junk to interfere.  The Bible is full of events where God sent angels to deliver messages or spoke directly to people.  There were prophets who had a gift for dreams and visions and that is how God spoke to people.  It's good to keep certain things that God speaks to you all to yourself.  Some things are for sharing and some things are for increasing your faith.  

So is this post from Scott or Scott's wife since they are on each other's computer? Emma confused.  

Wifey posted that.

[Babblelot]

I appreciate your respectfulness, Babs.    As always, I'm an open book and willing to chat about most anything. 

I let you and kicker return to his catechism class.

[kingskid]

Ha ha...funny, Babs.