Topic: What have we gotten ourselves into?

[Emma]

Oh my - the last few pages truly justify the name of this thread. LOL

Anyway, here's what I think re: the original problem in hand, I would simply have a talk with her. She probably finds it boring. Forcing her to do something she truly doesn't enjoy will only make matters worse.

Kicker, a 9 year old is too young to understand the concept of God. Even if you think that you do, you actually don't. 

[kingskid]

I believe as soon as a child is capable of understanding and expressing love...he or she is capable of understanding who God is.  It's us adults who make it so complicated.  It's the faith of a child that we should mimic.  Understanding the mind or ways of God may be what you are leaning more towards and you are right, only the Holy Spirit knows the mind of God, but His Word is the best way to get to know Him/His ways and our nine year old is already getting that in herself.  There are a lot of things that a nine year old just doesn't get yet, but it is a ripe age to start introducing her to God and how He interacts within her sphere. 

The initial outburst that prompted this post was waaay more about her disrespectful attitude and actions than it was about her not wanting to go to church.  She also throws a hissy fit once or twice a week about having to go to school and/or brush her teeth, but we don't let her stomp around and tell us she's not going/to do it and that's that. 

[Babblelot]

Hey Christina, where ya been?

[kickserve]

I think you have about a 2-year window of oppurtunity between them learning how to express love, and them learning how to reason. If you haven't convinced them to love God before they learn how to think for themselves, you're unlikely to ever manage it because they're going to want to see some sort of evidence that God and heaven exist, and that evidence is......hard to come by, I think is the polite way of putting it. If she isn't hooked on God by the time she asks you if Santa is real, no amount of church is going to help.

Alternatively, you could try not introducing kids to religion at all until they're old enough to think critically for themselves......is it really fair to label a child as 'Christian' (or any other religion/non-religion) before they're old enough to truly understand things as complicated as shoelaces, never mind the meaning of life? 

Sorry, atheist rant over.

[kingskid]

I've been trouncing around South Dakota and Wyoming, Babs!  Had an awesome opportunity to get out there basically for free so I got to see my Dad and family out there (first time in five years) and they got to meet Lilly for the first time.  

I respectfully disagree with ya, Kick.  I know of many grown people who have the ability to critically think for themselves (extremely intelligent people, people who have come from different religions and some none at all), yet have an encounter with Christ and begin learning who God is EVEN at their mature age.  And the evidence of His existence and daily encounters with us is not hard to come by at all...we critical thinkers just explain it away as our imagination, coincidence or our own volition. 

And yes, I think it is fair to steep a child in Christianity and teach them on a daily basis how to walk it, talk it and share it.  As Christian parents we are called to do just that and are given a promise that if we teach them the Word of God it will always stay with them. (doesn't mean they'll always walk it)  It gives them a solid base to jump from though.  It provides moral boundaries that have reasons and lessons to back them up.  It teaches them humility and how to love others with unselfishness and forgiveness.  It teaches them submission to authority that will gain them respect and honor as they go out into the workplace.  It teaches them how to connect with the One who created them and gives them purpose and direction.  These are just a few examples.  I mean heck, I'm 32 and STILL learning!  I was abused as a child and then came to accept Christ when I was thirteen.  My relationship with Him was the ONE thing I could always count on as being true and steady in my life.  I feel like we are giving our kids a jump start in life.  Giving them that steadiness earlier and packing in the biblical lessons earlier so that when they come across strife and arguments and issues they will have this direction and wisdom in themselves already to pull from. 

However, as I was laying down with Ab last night in her bed this post came to mind so I asked her "Abby, do you "understand" who God is?"  She paused for a few and then said "Not as much as I want to."  Awe...see...the desire to know Him IS there.  We don't expect her to understand it all, but rather to have a soft and eager heart to learn.  God will do the rest!  He will teach her gently and bubble forth the lessons as she reads His word and prays with Him. 

LOL...okay, Christian rant over.

[kickserve]

  I figured you'd disrespectively disagree with me, so credit to you for glossing over the 'aggressive rant' nature of my post: reading it through it does come off a bit aggressive so sorry about that.

Are there any statistics of what % of Christians (for example, works equally well with other faiths) are 'born-again' as opposed to those who would say they were Christian from childhood, or more precisely, by their parents choice? I'd be amazed if the proportion of 'born-again' Christians is more than 20%.

Do you have to teach them Christianity to teach them morals? My parents taught me morality, but not as the 10 commandments: what they taught me about morals could be put fairly accurately into 'treat others as you would wish to be treated' which pretty much covers the 10 commandments (ignoring the ones which specifically relate to God) and imho, if God does exist and would punish me for not believing in him, or praising another god, or any other religion-related sins, even if I had lived my life according to "treat others as you would wish to be treated" and was sorry for any occasions on which I had transgressed that rule and hurt others uneccesarily, if he would punish me for that, he is not God. In a nutshell, why do you have to believe in God to be a well-balanced and considerate human?

What 'evidence' for the existence of God do we see every day? I have asked this question many times, and people tend to respond with some sort of example of things which they cannot rationally explain, and hence it must be God. In my opinion calling this 'evidence is both lazy and a little dishonest: even if you consider the existence of life as evidence towards the existence of a deity, would you mind showing me any evidence that:

(a) this deity is the Christian God, and not Jewish/Muslim/Hindu etc.
(b) This deity is omnipotent
(c) This deity arranges an eternal afterlife in paradise for the 'righteous'
(d) 'righteous' is defined by God as it is defined in the Bible.

Would you ever describe a 9-year-old as a 'socialist' or a 'patriot'? A Democrat or a Republican? A 'homosexual' or a bigot? Never. So why would you describe a 9 year old as a Christian? You say your 9-year-old doesn't really understand God. I assume the case is even more true for the 2 younger children?  If you don't understand something, how can you love it, and much less use it as a moral guide for life?

I understand that you are seeing this from a very Christian point of view, so you see that teaching a child about God is giving them a 'head-start' in life. From an atheist point of view (i.e. the point of view saying that the bible is essentially a collection of tales akin to fable stories, designed to have a moral but not necessarily related to the truth)  what it looks like is indoctrinating children with a set of stories and morals that were designed long ago by the powers of the time to keep the masses in check (the 'do as we tell youand you can live forever' trick that has been abused tthroughout the history of religion), so I gues we are never going to agree on this, however i think that certainly any discussion of heaven/hell is inappropriate with children who cannot think critically: here is a set of moral guidelines for life, if you follow them you go to heaven, if you don't you go to hell: to me this is emotional blackmail, so if (as obviously you do ) you teach children about Christianity, if you want them to have a strong relationship with God, I would personally omit the heaven/hell parts of the stories, surely you can use your own judgement on how to teach them the consequences of misbehaviour, whether you do this with smacking, talks or other punishments.

[kingskid]

I figured you'd disrespectively disagree with me, so credit to you for glossing over the 'aggressive rant' nature of my post: reading it through it does come off a bit aggressive so sorry about that

.
I think I honestly missed the aggressiveness.  If you were being aggressive I didn't feel it.

Are there any statistics of what % of Christians (for example, works equally well with other faiths) are 'born-again' as opposed to those who would say they were Christian from childhood, or more precisely, by their parents choice? I'd be amazed if the proportion of 'born-again' Christians is more than 20%.

Aren't there statistics to cover ALL the sides of a debate.  Statistics are flexible. 

Do you have to teach them Christianity to teach them morals? My parents taught me morality, but not as the 10 commandments: what they taught me about morals could be put fairly accurately into 'treat others as you would wish to be treated' which pretty much covers the 10 commandments (ignoring the ones which specifically relate to God)

You can be a moral person without Christianity.  That is certainly true.  And the Golden Rule is usable across many religions.

and imho, if God does exist and would punish me for not believing in him, or praising another god, or any other religion-related sins, even if I had lived my life according to "treat others as you would wish to be treated" and was sorry for any occasions on which I had transgressed that rule and hurt others uneccesarily, if he would punish me for that, he is not God.

God SO loves us that He made a plan (a sacrifice) for our unbelief and alllll our sins against Him and each other well before we were created.  He is amazing in His long suffering. He is the beginning and the end and knows all of what is happening in between.  This question of yours begs for your own research.  There is nothing like getting into it for yourself and realizing it on your own. If you just take my word for it (not that you are *wink*) then you are being a hypocrite to your current beliefs. Have you looked into all the aspects, tried it out and researched this on your own and come to this conclusion or did you just adopt this belief based on what you've seen and heard?  I'm not at all being sarcastic or aggressive, I'm just curious.  I know that I can give you my beliefs on this question, but it's not gonna have a whole lot of weight to it if you already think I'm a bible thumping, deceived individual, am I right? 

Oh alright, I'll give you my thoughts anyway b/c I just can't shut up anyway.     God's sacrifice for us was SOOOOO huge that it is the ultimate slap in the face to NOT BELIEVE, to NOT recognize, to say He does not exist is to spit on what He did for you and me.  Even the way a human cell works screams out the story of it's Creator. Even if you were to ignore the bible, the church, the conservative nutty Christians, the hypocrites in all our lives...the earth and the way it all moves and creates evidences a Creator.  God is so amazingly loving that He gives us AMPLE, AMPLE time to learn about Him, to come back to Him, to recognize, to realize that we are not our own gods or that we are to serve wooden idols.  The ultimate punishment after our death here on earth (if we do not accept that we are lost and need a savior in Christ) is eternal separation from Him, but the minor punishments (or consequences) here on earth are either gentle or not so gentle ways of His to bring us into alignment with His will for us.  Okay, okay...I'm definitely rattling on here.   The point is...He loves each one of us and does not want for any of us to perish, but also does not want a relationship with a robot.  Our free will allows for us to chose to believe and have a one on one relationship with him.  That's not just going to church or forcing yourself to read the Bible, but to have a REAL one on one relationship, daily, intimate.  He DOES talk to his children and longs for a physical reunion with us, which will come.

What 'evidence' for the existence of God do we see every day?

 

Well, a critical skeptic could explain away any evidence I gave them, am I right?  The evidence I see is in the transformation stories of people, myself included.  But then an Agnostic or Atheist or Buddhist would give me another reason for my evidence.  So this argument is cyclical.  In my own life I get quiet with a journal and the Bible, talk with God one on one. My evidence is that a child who grew up being emotionally abused and molested gave herself to Christ, believed that he was real and wanted a personal relationship with me and throughout my talking with God, my pouring out of my own will in my life was able to TRULY forgive the people who abused and molested me. My evidence is watching my best girlfriend who grew up strictly Morman and was a serious drug abuser come to HAVE strength and power and a transforming kind of love for herself and the people in her life who continually try to beat her down.  It's most definitely in the transformation of a person's spirit.  BUT...that's not the evidence you are looking for.  It's that irrational, dishonest and lazy "evidence" you have been given previously.  My suggestion to you would be to ask HIM for some evidence. And maybe you have?  But then you have to wonder if your insistent disbelief has created a barrier that needs to be brought down in order to hear Him. I've heard many stories of people throughout my few years on the earth who professed to being at the end of their rope with this world, their situation and shouting at God  "IF you ARE real - SHOW UP!  Help me!  Save me from this!" and he did.  The trick will be not allowing yourself to explain it away as chance like your skeptical mind will want to.

All Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Muslims, Pagans, etc will be serving the one true God when they each accept that Christ is the Messiah that they all are looking for.  Woo Boy - that'll fire up the heat in here!

Would you ever describe a 9-year-old as a 'socialist' or a 'patriot'? A Democrat or a Republican? A 'homosexual' or a bigot?

Kids are subject to what their parents subject them to.  What parent, who truly believed that there was only ONE way to Heaven and that was to accept Christ as their savior, would look at their kid and say "eh, you're on your own with this life, buddy."  THAT would not be good parenting.  And conversely, if I knew matches started a fire and saw my kids playing with matches and I DIDN'T stop them or give them wise council, then that is bad parenting too. 

So why would you describe a 9 year old as a Christian?

I would describe any person of any age who knew the facts of how to accept Christ as their savior and followed them (asking Christ into their heart) as a "Christian."  Problem is...the Christian label has been watered down and been used against so many people that it tends to have a negative connotation.  A person who is really chasing after the heart of God and following the example of Christ could be more appropriately labeled "a follower of Christ."  Abby made a commitment based on what she knew at a certain age and it's my responsibility to teach her how to carry that commitment out.  As she grows and her brain develops, so will her relationship with Christ.  She could at a later age depart from what she's learned and she'll be responsible for herself.  At this point though she's our responsibility and we are teaching her what we believe and experience as truth. 

I assume the case is even more true for the 2 younger children?  If you don't understand something, how can you love it, and much less use it as a moral guide for life?

Yep - the younger two, and really just Zman, have only the bare bones.  They are along for the ride until they get a little older and can understand.  Zman is learning the basics of how to pray and learning the Bible stories.  He can still apply scripture to his life, although it's his parents responsibility to point it out and help him do so.

I gues we are never going to agree on this, however i think that certainly any discussion of heaven/hell is inappropriate with children who cannot think critically: here is a set of moral guidelines for life, if you follow them you go to heaven, if you don't you go to hell: to me this is emotional blackmail, so if (as obviously you do ) you teach children about Christianity, if you want them to have a strong relationship with God, I would personally omit the heaven/hell parts of the stories,

I definitely get the emotional blackmail idea you have, but I don't subscribe to it.  I think since I came to know Christ on my own and experienced Him as a healer and a friend first, I have a harder time understanding what others feel when they come from a non-emotional religious background.  I NEEDED CHRIST and so when I accepted Him, he came right in and made me feel grounded and comfortable and began healing wounds in me that shouldn't have been there at age 13.

Hell is terrifying and you're right...it's an age appropriate discussion to have.  Just like I wouldn't jump right into all the details of human sexuality with my nine year old, I wouldn't go scaring my five year old with the reality of eternal separation from God.  Abby knows the distinction of Heaven and Hell on a basic level, but as she gets more into the Bible (be it now while under our roof or later when she's an adult) she'll understand that Hell was created for a purpose just as Heaven has it's purpose. 

   Thanks for the banter, Kick!!  Guess I'd better get back to duties!
 

[Babblelot]

All I have to say is, after the first time I met Abby I told Scott to wash her mouth out with soap (do a search for "wash mouth soap" and I bet you'll find it). I knew she was trouble a long time ago.

[FedFanForever]

The overwhelming reality is that all kids are brainwashed into whatever their parents are doing + whatever they see on TV.

[Pamqnx]

What 'evidence' for the existence of God do we see every day?

Why one would need any evidence of the existence of God?
To believe in God is not something rational, so you don't need a "proof" to believe in it...

[FedFanForever]

Hey look, I believe the universe is infinite. I have no evidence *but* I don't base my whole way of living on that belief. And I sure as hell don't impose a way of living based on that belief on everyone else.

[Emma]

I believe (ultimately it all boils down to what one believes or chooses to believe) believing in God is a matter of choice and it's given to you as soon as you take the form that of a human being. Then you are given the journey of life, in other words, enough time to go through all sorts of experience to draw your own conclusion. For that reason, younger generation tend not to believe in anything concrete without the supposed "proof", but as life goes on, many tend to change their minds in the later years, as they experience many different things that influence their minds. They do say though that the free will only exists at the initial stage, but once you make a decision and act on it, anything afterwards becomes inevitable.

When I was 9, I was like Abby only worse. I wouldn't do anything religious. On top of that, I would question his existence nonstop. It was such a fascination of mine that one time I even dreamt God and I told my parents the next morning and they were all dumbfounded and didn't know whether to believe me or not. LOLOLOL! oh well.

I still remember that dream but I never once told anyone what the dream was all about as it was truly mind numbling. So I feel the need to keep it as it is.

So anyway, if I see anyone who doesn't believe in God, I don't worry too much. I believe nature has its way taking care of things and I want to leave it at that. I love arguing about it though because it's so much fun.

 

[FedFanForever]

I believe (ultimately it all boils down to what one believes or chooses to believe) believing in God is a matter of choice and it's given to you as soon as you take the form that of a human being. Then you are given the journey of life, in other words, enough time to go through all sorts of experience to draw your own conclusion. For that reason, younger generation tend not to believe in anything concrete without the supposed "proof", but as life goes on, many tend to change their minds in the later years, as they experience many different things that influence their minds. They do say though that the free will only exists on the initial stage, but once you make a decision and take action on it, anything afterwards becomes inevitable.

When I was 9, I was like Abby only worse. I wouldn't do anything religious. On top of that, I would question his existence nonstop. It was such a fascination of mine that one time I even dreamt God and I told my parents the next morning and they were all dumbfounded and didn't know whether to believe me or not. LOLOLOL! oh well.

I still remember that dream but I never once told anyone what the dream was all about as it was truly mind numbling. So I feel the need to keep it as it is.

So anyway, if I see anyone who doesn't believe in God, I don't worry too much. I believe nature has its way taking care of things and I want to leave it at that. I love arguing about it though because it's so much fun.

 

I don't mind as long as Christians/Muslims stop trying to convert me. 

[Tennis4you]

When I was 9, I was like Abby only worse. I wouldn't do anything religious. On top of that, I would question his existence nonstop. It was such a fascination of mine that one time I even dreamt God and I told my parents the next morning and they were all dumbfounded and didn't know whether to believe me or not

The only issue we had that day was that Abby did not want to do what she was being made to do.  She also balks at a number of other things we MAKE her do, but it's not as much the THING we make her do that she dislikes as it is the fact that she is being MADE to do it.  I was the same exact way.  If you told me to do something I would inevitably think or say "Dang, why don't you just ASK me to do it instead of forcing me to?"  I just wanted to have some say in it.  Of course having some say in it implies that you have a CHOICE and often kids do not when it comes down to certain things.  She typically wants to go to her AWANA class each week, but gives us trouble when she doesn't have the homework done that is required that night.  So it isn't that she doesn't want to go, it's that she doesn't want to be embarrassed that she doesn't have her homework done.

Emma, a non-believer would rationalize your dream as your sub-conscience just spelling out what your conscience had been thinking about and mulling over for so long.  However, a believer would explain that you have two parts to yourself...your body and your spirit.  It sounds like God spoke to your spirit through a dream.  God spoke to and still speaks to his children through dreams and visions and children are especially sensitive to Him b/c they do not have a lot of other worldly junk to interfere.  The Bible is full of events where God sent angels to deliver messages or spoke directly to people.  There were prophets who had a gift for dreams and visions and that is how God spoke to people.  It's good to keep certain things that God speaks to you all to yourself.  Some things are for sharing and some things are for increasing your faith. 

[Babblelot]

Emma, a non-believer would rationalize your dream as your sub-conscience just spelling out what your conscience had been thinking about and mulling over for so long.  However, a believer would explain that you have two parts to yourself...your body and your spirit.  It sounds like God spoke to your spirit through a dream.  God spoke to and still speaks to his children through dreams and visions and children are especially sensitive to Him b/c they do not have a lot of other worldly junk to interfere.  The Bible is full of events where God sent angels to deliver messages or spoke directly to people.  There were prophets who had a gift for dreams and visions and that is how God spoke to people.  It's good to keep certain things that God speaks to you all to yourself.  Some things are for sharing and some things are for increasing your faith. 

About 6 months ago, God told me that I should be having sex with my college gf's little sister. He's right.

[kickserve]

Can we please get this issue with the cursor spazzing out every time you type a message longer than the size of the box, so I can reply properly to Mrs. T4U's essay?

Just to start, I may have exaggerated a bit in the past on here: I would only have called myself an 'atheist' over about the past 18 months, I was probably 'agnostic' leaning towards not believeing for about 10 years before that, though I have had spells of thinking maybe God existed, and I did put some thought into it, spoke to some religious people with an open mind when I was about 15, but nobody could ever show me any evidence to make me believe. You talk of the miracles of you and your friend becoming decent, well-balanced people after your childhood suffering, but I think that does down the hard work you and she will have put into your own personal development: I assume you both had some sort of therapy/counselling and spent a lot of time "soul-searching"? Belief and faith has probably helped you a lot, but whether or not there's anyone 'on the other end of the phone' doesn't necessarily make a difference, you obviously think there's somebody talking to you, I wont even pretned I understand what you're talking about there as nobody has ever 'spoken to me' in that way.

I wouldn't say I'm 'spitting on God', as from my point of view, he doesn't exist, didn't have a child to sacrifice and can neither feel or see my spit 

I guess it's fair enough to teach your children Christianity as you truly believe that's the truth you are giving them. Are you comfortable with them learning things like evolution and the Big Bang theory in school?

Also, I can very easily understand that many people believe strongly in a deity, aand if you feel you have a personal relationship with him, that's fine. However, what makes you think that this deity you speak to has arranged an afterlife in eternal paradise for all the believers and the righteous? Have you ever asked him? That part of the religious stories is what turned me off religion in the end: to me, I can very easily imagine the invention of religion coming from some 'leader' whether it be a king, pharoah or w/ee, telling the masses 'if you do what we say is moral (which tended to be subersience to the ruler) then you can live forever in paradise" and there are examples of this sort of abuse of power all the way through the history of religion even up to the present day, from the blatant abuse of women's rights under sharia law and the rampant paedophilia going on in the Catholic Church (maybe that'ss just Europe, I'm not sure), all the way back to stuff like the divine right of Kings..

[Babblelot]

Can we please get this issue with the cursor spazzing out every time you type a message longer than the size of the box, so I can reply properly to Mrs. T4U's essay?

I was having that same problem with Internet Explorer, so I switched to Firefox and Google Chrome. We had a discussion about this a while back.

[Babblelot]

God SO loves us that He made a plan (a sacrifice) for our unbelief and alllll our sins against Him and each other well before we were created.  He is amazing in His long suffering. He is the beginning and the end and knows all of what is happening in between.

What's God's plan for the victims of Montcoal, WV? Maybe the victims are merely tools God used to "out" a greedy corporate profiteer who made $19 million in 2009 while ignoring 1300 safety violations, the most egregious leading to the methane gas explosion that's so far killed 25?  
Sooo... kill 25 people to expose one greedy F***! effing brilliant! God, take a bow

And maybe God's plan for all of the little children molested by Catholic priests is the only way He has to take down the Catholic Church. Nicely played, God!!

Come on, you want to tell me that after all of these centuries of war, plague, genocide, rape, murder, molestation, human trafficking, and natural disaster, man hasn't a glimmer of insight into God's plan? After all of these centuries it's all still one big mystery??? Seriously, what's wrong with Christians? All you have to be is intellectually curious. There's centuries of recorded history of God's plan. Why aren't any Christians interested enough in unraveling his plan for the 25 dead coal miners or the molested Catholic children? But instead, every single one of you would rather stick your head in the sand and repeat that old, tired refrain, "Everything happens for a reason."

Man, if I thought the afterlife was "ALL THAT," I'm not sure I'd want anything to do with this stupid world. But unlike Christians, I don't get a second chance at life.



P.S.   Scott, share my thoughts with your pastor. I'd LOVE to hear what he has to say. 

[Tennis4you]

I would only have called myself an 'atheist' over about the past 18 months

So what kicked you over the edge then, from agnostic to atheist?  And please don't think (anyone here) that I am "out to convert you"...although I'd be happy if you DID feel and experience the living God.  I am passionate about my relationship with Christ and much to the discomfort to many of my believing and non-believing friends I DO hear from Him.  He speaks to my spirit as I pray and it's a shame that that is such an odd thing for people.  That's actually the amazing thing about Christianity...it's a relationship!  It's not works based (although your works and attitude will change the closer you get to Him) like other religions.  He's accessible to those who believe and ask Him.  But just like any other relationship in your life you have to be a part of it.  I even started out thinking "I asked Him to forgive me of my sins, believe he died on a cross for all mankind and rose again on the third day and that He loves me" so that's the ticket...then I'm saved.  Well, that's true, but then what about the relationship? If I had met Scott, dated him, professed my love for him, married him and then never talked to him again...what kind of relationship would that be?  Sure, I'd be his wife by law, but how could I profess to KNOW Scott if I never talked to him, spent time with him, loved him??  And how would that make Scott feel?  Wouldn't he be sitting there thinking "Man, where's the wife and friend I thought I was getting?  I wish I had a partner, someone to love."  Same thing with my relationship with God.  I spent too many years ignoring Him, only asking from Him when I was in real need, being a pew warmer.  Then when I started making the effort to spend time with Him quietly (or not so quietly - time with Him is unique with every person) and He was showing up.  I found myself craving alone time with Him, time to read the Scriptures and get to know who He is, who I am, what His promises are to his children. 

You talk of the miracles of you and your friend becoming decent, well-balanced people after your childhood suffering, but I think that does down the hard work you and she will have put into your own personal development: I assume you both had some sort of therapy/counselling and spent a lot of time "soul-searching"?

My friend had some counseling due to it being forced on her (along with a lot of mind numbing medications) but none of it was helpful to her.  It wasn't until she started paying attention to her heart and her relationship with God that the other crap in her life started to become clear.  And no, I didn't have any counseling.  My heart issues were worked out over a period of years with God, a select few friends who've been there, done that and myself.  But I knew you'd explain it that way - now didn't I!? 

I wouldn't say I'm 'spitting on God', as from my point of view, he doesn't exist, didn't have a child to sacrifice and can neither feel or see my spit 

Touche!

I guess it's fair enough to teach your children Christianity as you truly believe that's the truth you are giving them. Are you comfortable with them learning things like evolution and the Big Bang theory in school?

Yep - I'm comfortable with it.  Even if I weren't I don't have a choice in the public schools.  I just know that I need to reinforce that we don't subscribe to those THEORIES. 

However, what makes you think that this deity you speak to has arranged an afterlife in eternal paradise for all the believers and the righteous? Have you ever asked him?

Well, since I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and not just things written out of a man's imagination, I take it as such...the inerrant, living, Word of God.  And I believe in Heaven b/c the Bible says it's so. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014&version=NIV Jesus said while here on Earth that He was going on ahead of us to be with the Father and to prepare a place for us.  The apostle John actually had a divine encounter with God wherein he ascended in the Spirit (waaaaay out there for a non-believer!) and saw Heaven.  And actually, the book of Revelations gives us a series of events that will occur in the future and it says that God has a new kingdom that is already prepared and will be brought out of heaven to be here on the new earth after the tribulation period, etc.  It's REALLY fascinating stuff, even if you were to take it as a "story", although it could be too trippy for some people.  I believe Heaven is real and is where we will rule and reign with Christ once the things that have been foretold have come to pass and the enemy (Satan) has been cast down once and for all.  Of course, if you don't believe God exists then the same is true of Satan and voila...my essay doesn't mean squat.  

That part of the religious stories is what turned me off religion in the end: to me, I can very easily imagine the invention of religion coming from some 'leader' whether it be a king, pharoah or w/ee, telling the masses 'if you do what we say is moral (which tended to be subersience to the ruler) then you can live forever in paradise"

I don't like being the butt of a joke.  I don't like being lied to.  I liked being in control just as much as the next girl.  However, if I let that fear of being out of control lead my decisions and beliefs about life/eternity then I'd be missing out on the amazing power that Faith has for me.  God is trustworthy.  Christ is real and true to his word.  As I was praying about something recently I realized that being too in control of things(be it at work or home or in your spiritual relationship) is evidence of not trusting and that ultimately is a lack of faith.  So I figure that if you have control issues then ultimately you have faith issues (again no matter what situation you apply it to.  You can have a lack of faith in people, construction, government, etc.)...and really that is a heart thing and can only be worked out by the Holy Spirit. 

and there are examples of this sort of abuse of power all the way through the history of religion even up to the present day, from the blatant abuse of women's rights under sharia law and the rampant paedophilia going on in the Catholic Church (maybe that'ss just Europe, I'm not sure), all the way back to stuff like the divine right of Kings..

Ugh...isn't it disgusting?  It's a downright shame when people who bear the name of Christ give into their sin and hurt people.  I'm sure it grieves God on a much higher scale.  I have a friend who was molested by a youth pastor.  I mean...SERIOUSLY!?  Ugh!  However...the sin of people is not a testimony of who God is or what He stands for.  It's exactly what He sent Christ to die for.  Surely the enemy would be standing right there, wagging his retarded finger saying "SEE!  See what "Christians" do!  WHY would you ever want to be a part of that!?"  But that's NOT what Christians are to do.  The Bible doesn't teach any of us that.  At least nothing I've read thus far! 

[kingskid]

Man!  Bakes was logged in here on my computer again