Author Topic: UK General Election  (Read 9101 times)

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Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2010, 05:28:46 PM »
WTF does that have to do with whether or not it's morally/socially/economically optimal? Times change, don't base your judgements on right/wrong on a document written over 200 years ago.

Because society has decided to live by that document? That's the price of being a citizen.
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2010, 04:01:31 AM »
WTF does that have to do with whether or not it's morally/socially/economically optimal? Times change, don't base your judgements on right/wrong on a document written over 200 years ago.

Because society has decided to live by that document? That's the price of being a citizen.

That doesn't mean it's unquestionnable. Especially given that it appears to be publicly unquestionable in America, i.e. if a politician were to come out and say the Constitution needs to be radically changed because it's so spectacularly out of date, FOX news would go ballistic and hound him out of office, despite a significant number of American's almost certainly do believe in principles which are 'not compatible with the US Constitution'. Stop hiding behind the Constitution and use your own moral compass.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 04:08:47 AM by kickserve »

Offline monstertruck

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2010, 06:22:58 AM »
My moral compass leads me down the path where minority and individual rights supercede the rights of The Almighty Collective with few exceptions.

That just so happens to be the basic premise of the U.S. Constitution.

What a coinkey-dink! :))
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Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2010, 09:46:46 AM »
My moral compass leads me down the path where minority and individual rights supercede the rights of The Almighty Collective with few exceptions.

That just so happens to be the basic premise of the U.S. Constitution.

What a coinkey-dink! :))

Fair enough, I'm just saying that "that doesn't seem to be compatible with the US constitution" isn't a legitimate criticism.

Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2010, 09:53:37 AM »
Fair enough, I'm just saying that "that doesn't seem to be compatible with the US constitution" isn't a legitimate criticism.

From a moral standpoint, if you choose to live in society you have to abide by the Constitution. Otherwise, go be a hermit.
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2010, 09:59:50 AM »
Fair enough, I'm just saying that "that doesn't seem to be compatible with the US constitution" isn't a legitimate criticism.

From a moral standpoint, if you choose to live in society you have to abide by the Constitution. Otherwise, go be a hermit.

Same argument: if you don't like Obama, go to another country with an elected leader you agree with.....if you can find one.

Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2010, 10:19:48 AM »
Same argument: if you don't like Obama, go to another country with an elected leader you agree with.....if you can find one.

So you're for anarchy then? You have to abide by the rules of the community you live in. It's called civilization.
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2010, 10:25:34 AM »
Same argument: if you don't like Obama, go to another country with an elected leader you agree with.....if you can find one.

So you're for anarchy then? You have to abide by the rules of the community you live in. It's called civilization.

No, but I believe that saying "that's not what it says in the Constitution" or "that's not what Obama says" are totally illegitimate arguments. We're talking about belief systems here, not ignoring the law, just disagreeing with it.

Offline BGT

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2010, 10:26:13 AM »
Same argument: if you don't like Obama, go to another country with an elected leader you agree with.....if you can find one.

So you're for anarchy then? You have to abide by the rules of the community you live in. It's called civilization.

 :rofl_2: Talk about "not getting the point". :rofl_2: "if you don't like Obama, go to another country with an elected leader you agree with" does not mean "anarchy", which actually means: "a state of society without government or law."

I wish the Second Amendment could be overturned. No one besides recreational hunters needs a gun. But then, gang members would be  putting each other's eyes out with BBs. ..-)



Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2010, 01:25:49 PM »
:rofl_2: Talk about "not getting the point". :rofl_2: "if you don't like Obama, go to another country with an elected leader you agree with" does not mean "anarchy", which actually means: "a state of society without government or law."

I wish the Second Amendment could be overturned. No one besides recreational hunters needs a gun. But then, gang members would be  putting each other's eyes out with BBs. ..-)

Ever heard of self-defense as a god-given right? OMG, I so hope people like you remain in a SMALL minority!
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2010, 02:03:14 PM »
:rofl_2: Talk about "not getting the point". :rofl_2: "if you don't like Obama, go to another country with an elected leader you agree with" does not mean "anarchy", which actually means: "a state of society without government or law."

I wish the Second Amendment could be overturned. No one besides recreational hunters needs a gun. But then, gang members would be  putting each other's eyes out with BBs. ..-)


Ever heard of self-defense as a god-given right? OMG, I so hope people like you remain in a SMALL minority!


Self-defence, yes. Everybody being allowed a personal firearm, no. The reason you think you need a firearm? Because anyone can get one. If guns were properly controlled, as in Europe, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much gun crime.

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

As you can see, the countries with less gun ownership than USA have less than half the number of deaths from guns, and the graph shows pretty clearly a strong trend of higher gun ownership causing more gun-rlated deaths. Along with your (previous) health system, it's a national embarassment. If you can explain to me how the right to self defence is worth losing all those lives for, go right ahead. Right now, you're looking like the mugs who claim they should have the 'freedom' to drive at 200mph just because they can afford a Ferrari, never mind the evidence that driving that fast endangers lives.

Note; if you look a little further down the linked page you'll see that the US has almost 5 times more gun deaths due to homicide than any other country (the overall statistics include suicide as well, which you would assume is less affected by gun ownership).
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 02:05:45 PM by kickserve »

Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2010, 03:05:07 PM »
Self-defence, yes. Everybody being allowed a personal firearm, no. The reason you think you need a firearm? Because anyone can get one. If guns were properly controlled, as in Europe, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much gun crime.

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

As you can see, the countries with less gun ownership than USA have less than half the number of deaths from guns, and the graph shows pretty clearly a strong trend of higher gun ownership causing more gun-rlated deaths. Along with your (previous) health system, it's a national embarassment. If you can explain to me how the right to self defence is worth losing all those lives for, go right ahead. Right now, you're looking like the mugs who claim they should have the 'freedom' to drive at 200mph just because they can afford a Ferrari, never mind the evidence that driving that fast endangers lives.

Note; if you look a little further down the linked page you'll see that the US has almost 5 times more gun deaths due to homicide than any other country (the overall statistics include suicide as well, which you would assume is less affected by gun ownership).


I get it - you want to confiscate my gun and leave me at the mercy of criminals. Just like what has happened in the UK and Australia.
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2010, 03:11:45 PM »
Self-defence, yes. Everybody being allowed a personal firearm, no. The reason you think you need a firearm? Because anyone can get one. If guns were properly controlled, as in Europe, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much gun crime.

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

As you can see, the countries with less gun ownership than USA have less than half the number of deaths from guns, and the graph shows pretty clearly a strong trend of higher gun ownership causing more gun-rlated deaths. Along with your (previous) health system, it's a national embarassment. If you can explain to me how the right to self defence is worth losing all those lives for, go right ahead. Right now, you're looking like the mugs who claim they should have the 'freedom' to drive at 200mph just because they can afford a Ferrari, never mind the evidence that driving that fast endangers lives.

Note; if you look a little further down the linked page you'll see that the US has almost 5 times more gun deaths due to homicide than any other country (the overall statistics include suicide as well, which you would assume is less affected by gun ownership).


I get it - you want to confiscate my gun and leave me at the mercy of criminals. Just like what has happened in the UK and Australia.


No, I want to confiscate their guns too, just like pretty much every other civilised country in the world has done. If you bother to look at that link, you'll see it works pretty well for reducing gun-related deaths. Given that you brought up UK and Australia, please tell me how many gun-related deaths there are in each of those countries, compared to USA?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 03:13:20 PM by kickserve »

Offline BGT

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2010, 04:39:18 PM »
Self-defence, yes. Everybody being allowed a personal firearm, no. The reason you think you need a firearm? Because anyone can get one. If guns were properly controlled, as in Europe, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much gun crime.

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

As you can see, the countries with less gun ownership than USA have less than half the number of deaths from guns, and the graph shows pretty clearly a strong trend of higher gun ownership causing more gun-rlated deaths. Along with your (previous) health system, it's a national embarassment. If you can explain to me how the right to self defence is worth losing all those lives for, go right ahead. Right now, you're looking like the mugs who claim they should have the 'freedom' to drive at 200mph just because they can afford a Ferrari, never mind the evidence that driving that fast endangers lives.

Note; if you look a little further down the linked page you'll see that the US has almost 5 times more gun deaths due to homicide than any other country (the overall statistics include suicide as well, which you would assume is less affected by gun ownership).


I get it - you want to confiscate my gun and leave me at the mercy of criminals. Just like what has happened in the UK and Australia.


You should see Bowling for Columbine.

Actually, just watch this 3 minute clip. it's just a cartoon. :)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPBHtjZmSpw[/youtube]
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 04:44:53 PM by BGT »



Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2010, 04:46:46 PM »
Self-defence, yes. Everybody being allowed a personal firearm, no. The reason you think you need a firearm? Because anyone can get one. If guns were properly controlled, as in Europe, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much gun crime.

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

As you can see, the countries with less gun ownership than USA have less than half the number of deaths from guns, and the graph shows pretty clearly a strong trend of higher gun ownership causing more gun-rlated deaths. Along with your (previous) health system, it's a national embarassment. If you can explain to me how the right to self defence is worth losing all those lives for, go right ahead. Right now, you're looking like the mugs who claim they should have the 'freedom' to drive at 200mph just because they can afford a Ferrari, never mind the evidence that driving that fast endangers lives.

Note; if you look a little further down the linked page you'll see that the US has almost 5 times more gun deaths due to homicide than any other country (the overall statistics include suicide as well, which you would assume is less affected by gun ownership).


I get it - you want to confiscate my gun and leave me at the mercy of criminals. Just like what has happened in the UK and Australia.
[/quote]

No, I want to confiscate their guns too, just like pretty much every other civilised country in the world has done. If you bother to look at that link, you'll see it works pretty well for reducing gun-related deaths. Given that you brought up UK and Australia, please tell me how many gun-related deaths there are in each of those countries, compared to USA?
[/quote]

Yeah and stabbing related deaths are up. Oh and criminals will always have the guns. How can you assure me they won't?
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline monstertruck

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2010, 04:56:27 AM »
WTF does that have to do with whether or not it's morally/socially/economically optimal? Times change, don't base your judgements on right/wrong on a document written over 200 years ago.


Because society has decided to live by that document? That's the price of being a citizen.


That doesn't mean it's unquestionnable. Especially given that it appears to be publicly unquestionable in America, i.e. if a politician were to come out and say the Constitution needs to be radically changed because it's so spectacularly out of date, FOX news would go ballistic and hound him out of office, despite a significant number of American's almost certainly do believe in principles which are 'not compatible with the US Constitution'. Stop hiding behind the Constitution and use your own moral compass.
At least 12 yesterday in northern England alone.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/06/03/uk.england.shootings/index.html
CONK da ball!!!

Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2010, 06:11:43 AM »
WTF does that have to do with whether or not it's morally/socially/economically optimal? Times change, don't base your judgements on right/wrong on a document written over 200 years ago.


Because society has decided to live by that document? That's the price of being a citizen.


That doesn't mean it's unquestionnable. Especially given that it appears to be publicly unquestionable in America, i.e. if a politician were to come out and say the Constitution needs to be radically changed because it's so spectacularly out of date, FOX news would go ballistic and hound him out of office, despite a significant number of American's almost certainly do believe in principles which are 'not compatible with the US Constitution'. Stop hiding behind the Constitution and use your own moral compass.
At least 12 yesterday in northern England alone.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/06/03/uk.england.shootings/index.html


That's the most in Britain since Dunblane, about 20 years ago. How many times has something like this happened in America?

One example doesn't tell the whole story: look at the statistics in the link I posted. You'll notice GB sits in the bottom left corner of the graph, with very few guns and very few gun-related deaths, while the US is in the top-right corner.

Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2010, 06:16:24 AM »
Yeah and stabbing related deaths are up. Oh and criminals will always have the guns. How can you assure me they won't?

You seriously believe allowing every citizen access to a lethal weapon reduces violent crime overall? I'd love to see some statistics to back that one up  :whistle:

Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2010, 06:54:55 AM »
Yeah and stabbing related deaths are up. Oh and criminals will always have the guns. How can you assure me they won't?

You seriously believe allowing every citizen access to a lethal weapon reduces violent crime overall? I'd love to see some statistics to back that one up  :whistle:

Once again, I fail to see how stopping me from owning a gun for self defense has anything to do with violent crime.  :whistle:
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2010, 12:58:05 PM »
Yeah and stabbing related deaths are up. Oh and criminals will always have the guns. How can you assure me they won't?

You seriously believe allowing every citizen access to a lethal weapon reduces violent crime overall? I'd love to see some statistics to back that one up  :whistle:

Once again, I fail to see how stopping me from owning a gun for self defense has anything to do with violent crime.  :whistle:

Surely the priority of any law regarding lethal weapons is to reduce violent crime? Given that there's no way of ensuring that you're only using the gun for self-defence, the safest procedure is to take guns off everyone, as countries like the UK have done where we have almost zero gun crime.