Author Topic: UK General Election  (Read 8935 times)

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Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2010, 08:11:58 PM »
Answer this question: do you consider your right to own a lethal weapon more important than the deaths of all the people in the US every year who die because of your lax gun laws?

Once again, using a sledgehammer to kill a fly.
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2010, 04:39:47 AM »
Answer this question: do you consider your right to own a lethal weapon more important than the deaths of all the people in the US every year who die because of your lax gun laws?

Once again, using a sledgehammer to kill a fly.

Look at the stats: every country with tight gun laws has less than a quarter as much gun-related homicides as USA, your system isn't working! There's no need for you to have a gun if nobody else has one.

Come up with a better solution of stfu.

Offline monstertruck

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2010, 05:44:51 AM »
Come on monster, you're better than that: you saw the table with the US suicide rates at approx. 60% of all gun deaths, you could've at least checked the other stats in the same table: of the other 9 countries in the table, only Italy (55% suicide) and UK (57% suicide) have lower proportions of suicide, but Switzerland, Finland and France are all over 90% suicide, Canada and Australia are over 80%. If you look at purely homicides, the US has nearly 5 times as many gun-related deaths as any of the other countries.

As for accounting for 'justifiable' deaths, let's assume a man with a weapon comes into your home/workplace/pub, intend on massacre. Let's assume we want to minimise the number of people that die before the intruder is disarmed/leaves/dies. How large do you think that number is likely to be if he has a gun versus him having a knife/baseball bat? Very obvious question, with a very obvious answer.

You're labouring under the assumption it's impossible to get guns off criminals: it's not, Europe has managed it (though the fact we never allowed every idiot with psychiatric problems to have an assault rifle probably helps us reduce numbers anyway...).

I'm sure you having a gun is no danger to anyone, but you have to look at the bigger picture: there's no way of telling who's going to go nuts, and it is safer for the majority to take lethal weapons off everyone. But of course, your personal rights take precedence over the majority  :whistle:

The point of my life is not to serve "the majority".  :\

I didn't say that. I said that no individuals rights should be promoted when they sh!t all over the rights of the majority.
By that logic, you must also be in favor of state imposed spaying & neutering if it suits the majority.

To me, this is the crux of the arguement and perhaps the only reason I carry on the discussion.
I believe  it's imperative that you fully comprehend the philosophy that you support.

Another way to illustrate my point is "what if" you were in the minority without the protection of a constitution in a government run soley by "a majority"?

Now that would suck.
CONK da ball!!!

Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2010, 05:57:10 AM »
By that logic, you must also be in favor of state imposed spaying & neutering if it suits the majority.

To me, this is the crux of the arguement and perhaps the only reason I carry on the discussion.
I believe  it's imperative that you fully comprehend the philosophy that you support.

Another way to illustrate my point is "what if" you were in the minority without the protection of a constitution in a government run soley by "a majority"?

Now that would suck.


If that's what you think my logic is then you don't understand it at all, never mind 'fully comprehend'. Genitalia are body arts without which we cannot reproduce. They have a purpose. The only purpose of guns in this context is to defend from other people with guns. You take away the guns, you take away the problem, as demonstrated perfectly well in other countries.

Is it fair to say that your argument is that your right to bear a firearm is more important than the people who die because of this law?

As for your final point, what if the government did something I wouldn't like? Well yes, it sucks, they do so quite often, because you can't please everybody.

Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2010, 12:26:34 PM »
By that logic, you must also be in favor of state imposed spaying & neutering if it suits the majority.

To me, this is the crux of the arguement and perhaps the only reason I carry on the discussion.
I believe  it's imperative that you fully comprehend the philosophy that you support.

Another way to illustrate my point is "what if" you were in the minority without the protection of a constitution in a government run soley by "a majority"?

Now that would suck.


If that's what you think my logic is then you don't understand it at all, never mind 'fully comprehend'. Genitalia are body arts without which we cannot reproduce. They have a purpose. The only purpose of guns in this context is to defend from other people with guns. You take away the guns, you take away the problem, as demonstrated perfectly well in other countries.

Is it fair to say that your argument is that your right to bear a firearm is more important than the people who die because of this law?

As for your final point, what if the government did something I wouldn't like? Well yes, it sucks, they do so quite often, because you can't please everybody.

You're nothing but a fascist, pure and simple. I'm so glad I don't live in the UK which every day resembles Oceania more!
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline monstertruck

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2010, 01:44:08 PM »
By that logic, you must also be in favor of state imposed spaying & neutering if it suits the majority.

To me, this is the crux of the arguement and perhaps the only reason I carry on the discussion.
I believe  it's imperative that you fully comprehend the philosophy that you support.

Another way to illustrate my point is "what if" you were in the minority without the protection of a constitution in a government run soley by "a majority"?

Now that would suck.


If that's what you think my logic is then you don't understand it at all, never mind 'fully comprehend'. Genitalia are body arts without which we cannot reproduce. They have a purpose. The only purpose of guns in this context is to defend from other people with guns. You take away the guns, you take away the problem, as demonstrated perfectly well in other countries.

Is it fair to say that your argument is that your right to bear a firearm is more important than the people who die because of this law?

As for your final point, what if the government did something I wouldn't like? Well yes, it sucks, they do so quite often, because you can't please everybody.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but everything you've said up to this point indicates that you believe the rights of the majority supercede the rights of the minority or individual.

As we've seen from the statistics you've provided, the majority of gun deaths are suicides.
There is no information how many homicides were caused by law-abiding gun owners.
My argument is that I'm not responsible for individuals who choose to kill themselves or criminals who use weapons.  Those that choose to use guns illegally should be punished. 

The first step towards a totalitarian state is to remove the means of resistance.

Totalitarian-
"Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed."

I do not recognize the right of the majority to exercise control over me if I'm not doing anything wrong.

Re: your last statement... I just had to laugh.  By that logic, the current majority (at least in the U.S.) supports the 2nd amendment so I guess we're all set then. ;-()

Freedom is not free and always comes with a cost.
In this case, the right to and use of personal property by law-abiding citizens outweighs the cost of deaths incurred by suicides or criminals. 

As a solution, I suggest treating the causes rather than the symptom.
Teach people self-respect and respect for others.
Don't limit the rights of many because of the faults of a few.
CONK da ball!!!

Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2010, 02:05:43 PM »
No "majority rules" only applies if it's for the moral cause that kickserve supports...
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline monstertruck

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #87 on: June 08, 2010, 02:10:39 PM »
No "majority rules" only applies if it's for the moral cause that kickserve supports...
You mean like a fanatical conservative trying to impose his/her values on a pregnant woman who wants to have an abortion?  (just for you BGT!) :))
CONK da ball!!!

Offline kickserve

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2010, 02:20:26 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but everything you've said up to this point indicates that you believe the rights of the majority supercede the rights of the minority or individual.
Yes, within reason, that would be my basic philosophy. (Note: does NOT make me socialist, because I don't believe the rights of the majority are best served by socialism) I believe if a policy is fairest for the majority then it is usually right.

As we've seen from the statistics you've provided, the majority of gun deaths are suicides.
There is no information how many homicides were caused by law-abiding gun owners.
My argument is that I'm not responsible for individuals who choose to kill themselves or criminals who use weapons.  Those that choose to use guns illegally should be punished. 
 
As we can see from the statistics, the US lax laws on guns coincide with over 350% more HOMICIDE'S. I would assume that in Europe, people who really want to kill themselves use other methods, I very much doubt gun control has any significant impact on suicide rates. My argument is that it is impossible to tell when you give someone a gun how they will use it, and since the majority of these reaosns will be defence against others with guns, I prefer the European system where to get a gun you must provide a reason for its use other than self-defence and undergo a thorough psychiatric check-up, as well as have any gun licence revoked if you get a criminal record.

The first step towards a totalitarian state is to remove the means of resistance.

Totalitarian-
"Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed."

I do not recognize the right of the majority to exercise control over me if I'm not doing anything wrong.
Ah, the slippery slope argument. Funnily enough, there's no evidence in Europe of states imposing totalitarianism on their weaponless citizens. Roughly equivalent to me saying that the first step to legalising homicide is giving everyone a gun, or more likely, giving everyone a gun is the first step to a massive increase in gun crime......which has actually proven to be true.

Re: your last statement... I just had to laugh.  By that logic, the current majority (at least in the U.S.) supports the 2nd amendment so I guess we're all set then. ;-()
Remember, I don't live in USA. I don't really care about your gun laws, I happen to think they fly in the face of all logic, but if you guys like them, then that's up to you. In Europe, your gun laws would be hated, we like knowing that the local psycho doesn't have access to lethal weapons.

In this case, the right to and use of personal property by law-abiding citizens outweighs the cost of deaths incurred by suicides or criminals. 
The very fact that you've totally ignored the deaths of innocent citizens there is exactly why we will never agree on this. But think this through: given that the USA had 3.81 gun deaths/100,000 strictly to homicide, the next highest being Italy with 0.81, assuming you treated the values of criminals lives as zero (which I think is fundamentally wrong anyway) you'd need 79% of the homicides in the US to be those of criminals (assuming all Italy's gun deaths were innocent civilians) to say that US gun policies don't cause extra deaths to civilians. Even if this were as high as 50% (highly unlikely, I would assume the criminal has a significant 'advantage' over the victim) the US would have nearly 2.5 times as many civilians dying as any of the other countries. Is that worth it, really? I cannot possibly fathom how you can justify that loss of life.

As a solution, I suggest treating the causes rather than the symptom.
Teach people self-respect and respect for others.
Don't limit the rights of many because of the faults of a few.
Nice idea, but far less achievable than getting guns off streets; there will always by psychos.

Offline monstertruck

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2010, 03:03:38 PM »
I own my life.
You or the majority do not.

[youtube]
[/youtube]
CONK da ball!!!

Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #90 on: June 08, 2010, 03:28:59 PM »
I own my life.
You or the majority do not.

[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei0ch-y7r5c[/youtube]


Too bad, you're gonna have to swallow the majority's will.
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline BGT

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2010, 03:54:47 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but everything you've said up to this point indicates that you believe the rights of the majority supercede the rights of the minority or individual.

I do not recognize the right of the majority to exercise control over me if I'm not doing anything wrong.

Freedom is not free and always comes with a cost.
In this case, the right to and use of personal property by law-abiding citizens outweighs the cost of deaths incurred by suicides or criminals. 



But doesn't this already happen? There are already laws in existence that limit your rights while promoting the rights of the general public.

Regarding the bolded, do you text and drive or use your cell phone and drive? Studies have shown that texting and driving is more dangerous than drinking and driving. Is your right to use a cell phone while driving more important than your own life and the lives of people you're putting in danger?



Offline monstertruck

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #92 on: June 08, 2010, 04:18:14 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but everything you've said up to this point indicates that you believe the rights of the majority supercede the rights of the minority or individual.

I do not recognize the right of the majority to exercise control over me if I'm not doing anything wrong.

Freedom is not free and always comes with a cost.
In this case, the right to and use of personal property by law-abiding citizens outweighs the cost of deaths incurred by suicides or criminals. 



But doesn't this already happen? There are already laws in existence that limit your rights while promoting the rights of the general public.

Regarding the bolded, do you text and drive or use your cell phone and drive? Studies have shown that texting and driving is more dangerous than drinking and driving. Is your right to use a cell phone while driving more important than your own life and the lives of people you're putting in danger?
Did you forget that I don't own a cell? :confused1: :rofl_2:
I believe texting while driving is now illegal in N.H.

Laws regarding unsafe use of personal property are fine.
That's why there are laws against criminal use of guns.
CONK da ball!!!

Offline monstertruck

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #93 on: June 08, 2010, 04:20:33 PM »
I own my life.
You or the majority do not.

[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei0ch-y7r5c[/youtube]


Too bad, you're gonna have to swallow the majority's will.
NTFL! :rofl_2:

As mentioned before, I've been working diligently at reducing my traceables and my income.
When they come, there will be nothing for them to steal. :))
CONK da ball!!!

Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #94 on: June 08, 2010, 05:28:38 PM »
As mentioned before, I've been working diligently at reducing my traceables and my income.
When they come, there will be nothing for them to steal. :))

Preparing your doomstead?  :)~
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline monstertruck

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #95 on: June 08, 2010, 05:30:32 PM »
As mentioned before, I've been working diligently at reducing my traceables and my income.
When they come, there will be nothing for them to steal. :))

Preparing your doomstead?  :)~
Quite the contrary.
A retirement compound shall we say.
CONK da ball!!!

Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #96 on: June 08, 2010, 05:31:49 PM »
Quite the contrary.
A retirement compound shall we say.
[/quote]

Yeah but what about the zombie hordes? They'll find it.
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline Alison2006

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #97 on: June 08, 2010, 07:11:09 PM »
Allison - and under Labor the UK is bankrupt.

One l in Alison  :)) Thankyou  ;-()

When the Tories where in opposition, they didn't have a problem with Labours spendings  :), NONE of them!!!!!!!!!!!! They couldn't wait to have new Schools built  ..-) , new buildings built  ..-)

One can't remember any Tory MP against Labour spending, yet NOW THEY ARE??????????  :rofl_2:

With a PM and his wife worth 30 MILLION (David and Sam Cameron) and George "slasher" Osbourne worth 3 Million  :whistle:





I never thought he would win 4 French Opens - Roger Federer on Rafa

Offline Alison2006

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #98 on: June 08, 2010, 07:31:42 PM »
FedFanForever (since you are still online), can you please explain the "Big Society" to me (and many more  :innocent: ) I noticed you avoided this  ;-()


Thanks, and if you can also explain the "ALL IN THIS TOGETHER" bit, please  :)

I am pretty sure if I was worth Millions I might just get it!! Sadly I don't, but it does explain David Cameron's smug smile and George "Slasher" Osbourne attitude (A Lavish Party for thier friends) before announcing the CUTS!!!!!!!!! (RICH FRIENDS BTW)!!!!!!!!! ;-()

I never thought he would win 4 French Opens - Roger Federer on Rafa

Offline FedFanForever

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Re: UK General Election
« Reply #99 on: June 08, 2010, 11:32:55 PM »
FedFanForever (since you are still online), can you please explain the "Big Society" to me (and many more  :innocent: ) I noticed you avoided this  ;-()


Thanks, and if you can also explain the "ALL IN THIS TOGETHER" bit, please  :)

I am pretty sure if I was worth Millions I might just get it!! Sadly I don't, but it does explain David Cameron's smug smile and George "Slasher" Osbourne attitude (A Lavish Party for thier friends) before announcing the CUTS!!!!!!!!! (RICH FRIENDS BTW)!!!!!!!!! ;-()



Yeah because the UK can keep spending itself into oblivion....
Then we will fight in the shade.