Topic: Why are men so angry?

[Babblelot]

Let's get something clear right off the bat. This applies to men in general, including sweetie-pies like Chris and Scott. We're not talking about genetic freaks like me    But that doesn't mean I don't have a contribute 

Men in their twenties and thirties are fed up with women, but author Kay Hymowitz says you can’t blame them when women are demanding equality except when it comes to romance.

About a week ago, The Wall Street Journal published an excerpt of my new book, which argued that the new stage I call pre-adulthood—the twenties and early thirties—was not bringing out the best in single young men. Some men didn’t like it. As in, “cancel-my-subscription-the-writer-should-contract-such-a-bad-case-of-carpel-tunnel-syndrome-she-never-writes-again” didn’t like it.

But a lot of the responses unwittingly proved my point—and another one: Men are really, really angry. Consider: “We’re not STUCK in pre-adulthood, we choose it because there aren’t any desirable American women. They’ve been bred to abuse men.” This fairly typical response that appeared at the Seattle Post Intelligencer website: “Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you."

Shocked? I wasn t. During the last few years researching this age group, I’ve stumbled onto a powerful underground current of male bitterness that has nothing to do with outsourcing, the Mancession, or any of the other issues we usually associate with contemporary male discontent. No, this is bitterness from guys who find the young women they might have hoped to hang out with entitled, dishonest, self-involved, ****ty, manipulative, shallow, controlling—and did I mention gold-digging?

Check out the websites like names like MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), Nomarriage.com, or EternalBachelor.com (“Give Modern Women the Husband They Deserve. None.”). Or read popular bloggers like the pseudonymous Roissy, a ferociously caustic dissector of female “****tiness” and “s**t tests” (attempts to manipulate men). There are dozens upon dozens of gurus and counselors who publish posts like “42 Things Wrong With American Women” while chat forums ruminate over how “American Women Suck.”

Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure.

So, is this what Susan Faludi famously called the backlash? Is it immaturity, as my own book seems to suggest? Is it the Internet as an escape valve for decades of pent-up rebellion against political correctness? Or, is it just good, old-fashioned misogyny?

A bit of all of the above, probably. But there’s another reason for these rants, one that is far less understood. Let’s call it gender bait and switch. Never before in history have men been matched up with women who are so much their equal—socially, professionally, and sexually. By the time they reach their twenties, they have years of experience with women as equal competitors—in school, on soccer fields, and even in bed. They very reasonably assume that the women they are meeting at a bar or café or gym are after the same things they are: financial independence, career success, toned triceps, and sex.

That’s the bait; here comes the switch. Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.

Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday nights, and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day.

Far worse in the bait and switch category is women’s stated preference for nice guys and actual attraction to bad boys. Now, clearly this is not true for all women. Many, maybe even most, want a guy with the sweetness of a Jimmy Stewart and sensitivity of Ashley Wilkes. But enough of them are partial to the Charlie Sheens of this world that one popular dating guru, David DeAngleo, lists “Being Too Much of a Nice Guy” as No. 1 in his “Ten Most Dangerous Mistakes Men Make With Women.” At a website with the evocative name Relations**t.com, (“Brutally honest dating advice for the cynical, bitter, and jaded,” and sociological cousin of Dating-is-Hell.com) the most highly trafficked pages are those asking the question why women don’t like good guys.
PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/12649_whyaremenangrymanningupauthorkayhymowitzexplains

[Babblelot]

Entitled...check


That's the one that I get. I do more up front--guilty--but I do expect things to settle down. I do expect that the give-take disequilibrium created at the beginning of a relationship will sort itself out...right? After all, we are two adults. But six months later, nothing has changed! and I get all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KIzbktgJk

[foaquin]

PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/12649_whyaremenangrymanningupauthorkayhymowitzexplains

lol

[Babblelot]

PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/12649_whyaremenangrymanningupauthorkayhymowitzexplains

lol

Play Station ruined Andy Murray's relationship. 

[Babblelot]

foaquin, for someone jonesin' for conversation, you sure don't have much to say 

[foaquin]

jonesin' for conversation
is that like "anxious for chatting"  .

I have lots to say. I don't write that much because I'm "still improving" my vocabulary.

[Babblelot]

jonesin' for conversation
is that like "anxious for chatting"  .

I have lots to say. I don't write that much because I'm "still improving" my vocabulary.

You're fine.

Have you read the scribbles of Scott (Tennis4you)? Sadly, English is the only language he knows. Makes you wish it was his second language at times.

[Chris1987]

Interesting stuff Bab. To be honest reading a lot of that doesn't surprise me and the line that sums my feelings up best and what I've said for a long time at this stage of my life is this one
''All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you''
I couldn't agree anymore with that. I've not got the patience or desire to be with somebody who just naggs and whines and just wants to spend money- my money is too precious to me I work too hard for anybody else to get their hands on it. I also say I couldn't travel to the other side of the world and have somebody tell me what we're doing, it simply wouldn't work and we'd be coming back home on separate planes! So this article covers how some men generally feel and how many deep down actually feel sometimes but are that far into a relationship or marriage there's not too much way out. It reallydoes seem the case in the modern world that women want equality for everything that benefits them but there's a very firm line they'll stop at when it may actually start benefitting men, they've got things planned out nicely

[Abby]

Ha ha its looking much interesting stuff,according to my point of view men of all ages are quietly going against the impossible demands and expectations placed on them.Its much difficult for them that they can sit in a relax mood and they have found ways to express.

[Babblelot]

Ha ha its looking much interesting stuff,according to my point of view men of all ages are quietly going against the impossible demands and expectations placed on them.Its much difficult for them that they can sit in a relax mood and they have found ways to express.

I read others express this in their comments to the article, Abby. 

[Babblelot]

Interesting stuff Bab. To be honest reading a lot of that doesn't surprise me and the line that sums my feelings up best and what I've said for a long time at this stage of my life is this one
''All that nagging, whining , and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you''
I couldn't agree anymore with that. I've not got the patience or desire to be with somebody who just naggs and whines and just wants to spend money- my money is too precious to me I work too hard for anybody else to get their hands on it. I also say I couldn't travel to the other side of the world and have somebody tell me what we're doing, it simply wouldn't work and we'd be coming back home on separate planes! So this article covers how some men generally feel and how many deep down actually feel sometimes but are that far into a relationship or marriage there's not too much way out. It reallydoes seem the case in the modern world that women want equality for everything that benefits them but there's a very firm line they'll stop at when it may actually start benefitting men, they've got things planned out nicely

Yepppers, that's all part of the entitled package. Stealing, really? Ouch!

My favorite line from C-Lo Green's f**k You
Now i know, that i had to borrow,
Beg and steal and lie and cheat.
Trying to keep ya, trying to please ya.
'Cause being in love with you ass ain't cheap.

whining = it's your fault I feel like this
nagging = you're the one who is supposed to do something

[Chris1987]

Interesting stuff Bab. To be honest reading a lot of that doesn't surprise me and the line that sums my feelings up best and what I've said for a long time at this stage of my life is this one
''All that nagging, whining , and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you''
I couldn't agree anymore with that. I've not got the patience or desire to be with somebody who just naggs and whines and just wants to spend money- my money is too precious to me I work too hard for anybody else to get their hands on it. I also say I couldn't travel to the other side of the world and have somebody tell me what we're doing, it simply wouldn't work and we'd be coming back home on separate planes! So this article covers how some men generally feel and how many deep down actually feel sometimes but are that far into a relationship or marriage there's not too much way out. It reallydoes seem the case in the modern world that women want equality for everything that benefits them but there's a very firm line they'll stop at when it may actually start benefitting men, they've got things planned out nicely

Yepppers, that's all part of the entitled package. Stealing, really? Ouch!

My favorite line from C-Lo Green's f**k You
Now i know, that i had to borrow,
Beg and steal and lie and cheat.
Trying to keep ya, trying to please ya.
'Cause being in love with you ass ain't cheap.

whining = it's your fault I feel like this
nagging = you're the one who is supposed to do something

When they waste it on endless clothes, ridiculous amounts of shoes etc etc if its my money they're using to do that then I have it down as stealing. Nobody is getting near my money

[pawan89]

Interesting topic. I'll share my thoughts. sometime.

[Babblelot]

I'd love to get a cross-section from various countries. Are our problems universal?

[foaquin]

I think  that in most of the  Arabic/Islamic/Muslim/ countries, they don,t have this kind of problem,  because as far as I know, it's mandatory for the citizens to marry someone previously chosen by their parents or someone with the power to do so.  But then again I'm probably wrong.

[Babblelot]

I think  that in most of the  Arabic/Islamic/Muslim/ countries, they don,t have this kind of problem,  because as far as I know, it's mandatory for the citizens to marry someone previously chosen by their parents or someone with the power to do so.  But then again I'm probably wrong.

But the rest of us poor bastages are doomed 

[BGT]

Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.

Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday nights, and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day.

Ahem... woman here. This is my opinion on this. Some women (especially feminists) may disagree, but I was raised in the South, and this is what I believe.

I EXPECT a man to pursue me. I am not calling, initiating any contact or asking men out (or should I say boys because they are who I encounter while in college). As a women, I should not have to pursue a man. It makes me feel un-feminine and less desirable if I am chasing a man, and it makes me feel desired if the man is taking the initiative to contact me. It is a woman's job to express interest and a man's duty to pursue. Men ought to be ashamed of themselves if they expect a woman to pursue them. It is ingrained in the male DNA (basically) to pursue and "hunt". I would surmise that when a man sees a woman he's attracted to and he is able to "get" her, it makes him feel like THE man. If I'm doing all the convo-initiating, I assume the guy just isn't that into me.

Here's a recent example. This guy asked me out and we met at a coffee shop and both had chai lattes. After the date, he told me I could call him if I wanted to hang out. He never heard from me. If this man really was interested in me and wanted to do something, he'd call, which he didn't. I'm not chasing any man. I don't believe in this "21st century woman" and the gender role reversals. I expect a man to be a man and a woman to be a woman.

I don't mind paying for dates from time to time.

[Babblelot]

Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.

Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday nights, and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day.

Ahem... woman here. This is my opinion on this. Some women (especially feminists) may disagree, but I was raised in the South, and this is what I believe.

I EXPECT a man to pursue me. I am not calling, initiating any contact or asking men out (or should I say boys because they are who I encounter while in college). As a women, I should not have to pursue a man. It makes me feel un-feminine and less desirable if I am chasing a man, and it makes me feel desired if the man is taking the initiative to contact me. It is a woman's job to express interest and a man's duty to pursue. Men ought to be ashamed of themselves if they expect a woman to pursue them. It is ingrained in the male DNA (basically) to pursue and "hunt". I would surmise that when a man sees a woman he's attracted to and he is able to "get" her, it makes him feel like THE man. If I'm doing all the convo-initiating, I assume the guy just isn't that into me.

Here's a recent example. This guy asked me out and we met at a coffee shop and both had chai lattes. After the date, he told me I could call him if I wanted to hang out. He never heard from me. If this man really was interested in me and wanted to do something, he'd call, which he didn't. I'm not chasing any man. I don't believe in this "21st century woman" and the gender role reversals. I expect a man to be a man and a woman to be a woman.

I don't mind paying for dates from time to time.

Man, that was fascinating. Thanks BGT. Actually, nothing has changed in 20 years, and it's certainly not regional. I ran into this, too. I know my feminist friends would flip out if they heard this, but I didn't date feminists   

[monstertruck]

The 'Chinese Menu' approach!

Sounds like BGT has got it right to me.

[BGT]

It's good you men think that way. Too bad the boys of my generation expect me to do all the work.