Topic: Rafa's game plan against Djokovic

[Alex]

The BH hasn't changed, it's the fact that Nole is putting him out of position and robbing him of time.  To some, that may appear as though the stroke itself has changed.  A quick look at his other matches over the past 2 months shows ZERO technical change in his BH.  There was a slight tactical change in the last match against Nole in an attempt to regain POSITION & TIME.  He tried playing the ball higher over the net which also gave a bit more depth.  To me it appeared to be unsuccessful as he was unable to regain a NEUTRAL POSITION after this shot.  Nole just punished this tactical error. 

I would much rather see Raf play more drop shots and move Nole North & South instead of East & West.  Nole's defensive skills have improved considerably and he plays quite well side to side.  Forcing him to play a variety of balls at different heights in addition to forcing the lateral movement would give Nole a more complex puzzle to solve instead of just thumping away.

Come to think of it, that's been the main reason I wasn't a Nadal fan.

Hall of Fame nominee 

great post. I agree 100%. MT for the president 

[falcon]

The BH hasn't changed, it's the fact that Nole is putting him out of position and robbing him of time.  To some, that may appear as though the stroke itself has changed.  A quick look at his other matches over the past 2 months shows ZERO technical change in his BH.  There was a slight tactical change in the last match against Nole in an attempt to regain POSITION & TIME.  He tried playing the ball higher over the net which also gave a bit more depth.  To me it appeared to be unsuccessful as he was unable to regain a NEUTRAL POSITION after this shot.  Nole just punished this tactical error. 

I would much rather see Raf play more drop shots and move Nole North & South instead of East & West.  Nole's defensive skills have improved considerably and he plays quite well side to side.  Forcing him to play a variety of balls at different heights in addition to forcing the lateral movement would give Nole a more complex puzzle to solve instead of just thumping away.

Come to think of it, that's been the main reason I wasn't a Nadal fan.

What about the slice which was so effective in his wimbledon wins? He brought in that shot to counter Fed's vast repertoire of shots and also to make him more effective overall. Where has that shot gone now? I agree that Nole has tremendously improved but if Rafa adapted changes to overcome Fed, Nole shouldn't be impossible either.

[Alex]

Nadal is playing mind games with Djokovic, I think  .

Djokovic is French Open favourite, saysNadal

(AFP) – 3 hours ago

PARIS — Defending French Open champion Rafael Nadal heaped the pressure onto Novak Djokovic's shoulders on Thursday by insisting that the undefeated Serb is the favourite to win Roland Garros.

World number two Djokovic has won all 37 matches he has played in 2011 and has defeated Nadal in the season's four Masters finals, including on clay in Madrid and Rome.

"I think he is the great favourite. He hasn't lost a match since the start of the year and he's playing in an incredible way," said five-time French Open champion and world number one Nadal on a visit to the Champs Elysees.

"I do not fear Djokovic but you have to applaud his success since the beginning of the year. This will be very difficult to repeat. I admire what he has done."

Nadal also warned that his great rival Roger Federer, the 2009 champion and 16-time major winner, should not be ruled out as a contender when Roland Garros gets underway on Sunday.

"The Grand Slams are his speciality," said the Spaniard, who is one title away from equalling Bjorn Borg's record of six wins in Paris.

Nadal added: "I am always motivated and impatient to get my first match started."

"There has been a lot of talk about the Borg record, but I am only thinking about winning the tournament. The record will be a consequence of that. I can think about it afterwards."

Nadal practised for the first time on Thursday at the Suzanne Lenglen Court at Roland Garros.

"I played for about two hours, but it's too early to tell what the conditions are like. The balls seemed to bounce a little higher but it'll take me a few more hours to know more."

[monstertruck]

The BH hasn't changed, it's the fact that Nole is putting him out of position and robbing him of time.  To some, that may appear as though the stroke itself has changed.  A quick look at his other matches over the past 2 months shows ZERO technical change in his BH.  There was a slight tactical change in the last match against Nole in an attempt to regain POSITION & TIME.  He tried playing the ball higher over the net which also gave a bit more depth.  To me it appeared to be unsuccessful as he was unable to regain a NEUTRAL POSITION after this shot.  Nole just punished this tactical error. 

I would much rather see Raf play more drop shots and move Nole North & South instead of East & West.  Nole's defensive skills have improved considerably and he plays quite well side to side.  Forcing him to play a variety of balls at different heights in addition to forcing the lateral movement would give Nole a more complex puzzle to solve instead of just thumping away.

Come to think of it, that's been the main reason I wasn't a Nadal fan.

What about the slice which was so effective in his wimbledon wins? He brought in that shot to counter Fed's vast repertoire of shots and also to make him more effective overall. Where has that shot gone now? I agree that Nole has tremendously improved but if Rafa adapted changes to overcome Fed, Nole shouldn't be impossible either.

Raf has no time in the rallies from a neutral position to play a slice.
He has no time to play his normal BH or FH.  Nole is dominating most points from the start, pushing Nadal well behind the baseline and forcing him to scramble. 

Rafa's game is predicated on having time to rally and develop his rhythm.  Nole has taken that away.

I think Nadal needs to serve and return better in order to establish at least a neutral position at the beginning of each point.  From there he needs to be more aggressive IMMEDIATELY in order to gain the upper hand and set up the rallies that play to his strength.

If Uncle T is worth a dime he'll recognize this after 2 defeats on clay and encourage his nephew to make the necessary adjustments against Nole or face almost certain defeat against an in form DJoker.

All that being said, I would NEVER bet against Nadal on clay, NEVER!

[falcon]

The BH hasn't changed, it's the fact that Nole is putting him out of position and robbing him of time.  To some, that may appear as though the stroke itself has changed.  A quick look at his other matches over the past 2 months shows ZERO technical change in his BH.  There was a slight tactical change in the last match against Nole in an attempt to regain POSITION & TIME.  He tried playing the ball higher over the net which also gave a bit more depth.  To me it appeared to be unsuccessful as he was unable to regain a NEUTRAL POSITION after this shot.  Nole just punished this tactical error. 

I would much rather see Raf play more drop shots and move Nole North & South instead of East & West.  Nole's defensive skills have improved considerably and he plays quite well side to side.  Forcing him to play a variety of balls at different heights in addition to forcing the lateral movement would give Nole a more complex puzzle to solve instead of just thumping away.

Come to think of it, that's been the main reason I wasn't a Nadal fan.

What about the slice which was so effective in his wimbledon wins? He brought in that shot to counter Fed's vast repertoire of shots and also to make him more effective overall. Where has that shot gone now? I agree that Nole has tremendously improved but if Rafa adapted changes to overcome Fed, Nole shouldn't be impossible either.

Raf has no time in the rallies from a neutral position to play a slice.
He has no time to play his normal BH or FH.  Nole is dominating most points from the start, pushing Nadal well behind the baseline and forcing him to scramble. 

Rafa's game is predicated on having time to rally and develop his rhythm.  Nole has taken that away.

I think Nadal needs to serve and return better in order to establish at least a neutral position at the beginning of each point.  From there he needs to be more aggressive IMMEDIATELY in order to gain the upper hand and set up the rallies that play to his strength.

If Uncle T is worth a dime he'll recognize this after 2 defeats on clay and encourage his nephew to make the necessary adjustments against Nole or face almost certain defeat against an in form DJoker.

All that being said, I would NEVER bet against Nadal on clay, NEVER!

That I totally agree. Just that I still don't see why you can't see the absence of precision in his shots

[monstertruck]

Am not sure if there's a language barrier here or not.  The 'lack of precision' is readily apparent.  The cause as I see it, is Nole keeping Nadal off balance.  Time and again you see Raf going the wrong way prior to the shot only to come back, be short for time and have to create an athletic shot rather than the steady thumping rhythm he's used to.

Against all the other ATP'ers (except for maybe Solderling!) he seems to have ample time to set up for his windmill FH and crackerjack BH.


As I've mentioned before, I'm open-minded enough to discuss whatever technicallities others might think have changed in Raf's BH.  My opinion is, against all others his BH is technically sound, but Nole robs him tactically of the time necessary to produce a quality stroke.  Nothing to do with mechanics.  Until someone can produce some proof to the contrary (other than make general statements like 'he's hitting short' or 'he's not hitting hard enough') I'll stick to what I see and know.

That's why I miss some of the intelligent members that used to post here.  Seems like there are waaaaay to many fanboys here now who prefer to puff themselves up when their Boy wins but lack a basic understaning of tennis.

Obviously, you are not a fanboy Falc and it's most enjoyable discussing tennis or whatevah with you!

[williamchung7]

I review all match vedio that Nadal lose on youtube.

Murray, Djokovic, Del Potro, Nalbandian, Soldering show us the way how to beat Nadal, consistently attacking every shot and make pressure on Nadal. How to do it?

I think etery point starts from the return and serve. These players has better serve than others. I usually find that Nadal has short return against them. As professional tennis players, they start attacking, make a lot of aggressive shots start from their first contact with these weak returns. In other hand, when Nadal serve it is totally different story. Nadal's serve is weaker, they can make very deep return. They are good returners, especially Murray, Nalbandian and Djokovic. They are able to get short repond from Nadal by their deep return. And every attack start from here. Their game play are good to against Nadal. Nadal's 2010 US open serve has more speed and precise than now. However, it look likes Nadal has techni issue with his serve. His shoulder get injur after US open.


Another reason, why they have success is consistently agressive play increae speed of the groundstroke. Their groundstrokes have average around 120km/h when they against Nadal. Djokovic's average groundstroke speed  is improve in Rome Master compare last year, 125km/h vs 116km/h. As Nadal is more like defensive player in style, these players can make Nadal run for every shot and force Nadal to make short respond. Del Potro is the one do it very sucess in 2009 US open. During the groundstroke, I see a lot of short balls from Nadal.

I find another key in Nadal backhand, Nadal's weak backhand. I find that when Nadal is getting back in the grounstroke, Djokovic and other players use both wings to attack Nadal's backhand side. The result is they are able to regain the control of the rally. Djokovic hit a backhand down the line to Nadal's backhand and he get short repond from Nadal, then he makes cross court backhand for winner. Other players have similar combination, like Murray.

It is one of the reasons why Federer has problem with Nadal because Federer only can use his forehand to make pressure like it. His backhand has trouble with Nadal top spin, so he can not do same thing like these players did to Nadal in past 5 years. So Federer use deep and low backhand slice instead of normal backhand shot to protect his backhand and try to regain control groundstroke.

Now we see a similar tactic between Nadal and Djokovic, the difference is instead of forehand, this time is backhand. That is Djokovic's backhand. Nadal use his forehand to push Federer away from baseline. Djokovic use his backhand do the same thing to Nadal. Can Nadal do the same thing against Djokovic like Federer did against he? I don't think so because his backhand slice does not have same variable as Federer. He should find another way, Moonball is not the tatic against Djokovic unless it is very deep and very precise like others have mentioned in this thread.

[Babblelot]

williamchung HOFer 


There's some really good stuff in this thread.

[falcon]

Am not sure if there's a language barrier here or not.  The 'lack of precision' is readily apparent.  The cause as I see it, is Nole keeping Nadal off balance.  Time and again you see Raf going the wrong way prior to the shot only to come back, be short for time and have to create an athletic shot rather than the steady thumping rhythm he's used to.

Against all the other ATP'ers (except for maybe Solderling!) he seems to have ample time to set up for his windmill FH and crackerjack BH.


As I've mentioned before, I'm open-minded enough to discuss whatever technicallities others might think have changed in Raf's BH.  My opinion is, against all others his BH is technically sound, but Nole robs him tactically of the time necessary to produce a quality stroke.  Nothing to do with mechanics.  Until someone can produce some proof to the contrary (other than make general statements like 'he's hitting short' or 'he's not hitting hard enough') I'll stick to what I see and know.

That's why I miss some of the intelligent members that used to post here.  Seems like there are waaaaay to many fanboys here now who prefer to puff themselves up when their Boy wins but lack a basic understaning of tennis.

Obviously, you are not a fanboy Falc and it's most enjoyable discussing tennis or whatevah with you!

That is something I am not even witnessing these days. As I mentioned earlier, I just don't see the backhands that used to come from Rafa earlier. Infact he is playing so less on his backhand that he goes around and hits the forehand. Makes sense when you lack confidence and you know for a fact that your forehand is your strength, but in the process you are losing time, right? And then against a fast guy like Nole who already gives you very less time to react, or as you mention, even Soderling, your going around the backhand to hit a forehand just makes things worse. In the process you are seeing the multitude of unforced/forced errors.  Perhaps a comparison with the help of videos would help us understand this better. Perhaps I am totally wrong here but just like you, I am just stating things which I see. Let me see if I can find some video or something.

[falcon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ8AKFCtiVc&feature=related

This was one video I got....you see the depth in the Rafa shots and the ripper of backhands he is producing here. I know this is a different Nole we are talking about here, and that's the very reason why Rafa is losing his confidence and is not willing to hit anything on the backhand side, prefering to go around it and go for a forehand instead.

[williamchung7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ8AKFCtiVc&feature=related

This was one video I got....you see the depth in the Rafa shots and the ripper of backhands he is producing here. I know this is a different Nole we are talking about here, and that's the very reason why Rafa is losing his confidence and is not willing to hit anything on the backhand side, prefering to go around it and go for a forehand instead.

I think it is because Djokovic is able to make crossing backhand when Nadal use forehand attack Djokovic's backhand now.
I see that Djokovic has more speed and angel with his groundstroke now, it prove that monstertruck's point. Nadal has less reaction time to set up evey shot against Djokovic now. I think it is monstertruck try to say in his comment.

[falcon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ8AKFCtiVc&feature=related

This was one video I got....you see the depth in the Rafa shots and the ripper of backhands he is producing here. I know this is a different Nole we are talking about here, and that's the very reason why Rafa is losing his confidence and is not willing to hit anything on the backhand side, prefering to go around it and go for a forehand instead.

I think it is because Djokovic is able to make crossing backhand when Nadal use forehand attack Djokovic's backhand now. It is part of Nadal groundstroke decline I believe. Nadal certainly hit much more heavier in that vedio and allow him to set up backhand winner.

But I also see that Djokovic has more speed and angel with his groundstroke now, it prove that monstertruck's point. Nadal has less reaction time in evey shot against Djokovic now.

Yup then I guess it is twofold then. Rafa is definitely not hitting as deep and Nole is definitely faster now

[williamchung7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ8AKFCtiVc&feature=related

This was one video I got....you see the depth in the Rafa shots and the ripper of backhands he is producing here. I know this is a different Nole we are talking about here, and that's the very reason why Rafa is losing his confidence and is not willing to hit anything on the backhand side, prefering to go around it and go for a forehand instead.

I think it is because Djokovic is able to make crossing backhand when Nadal use forehand attack Djokovic's backhand now. It is part of Nadal groundstroke decline I believe. Nadal certainly hit much more heavier in that vedio and allow him to set up backhand winner.

But I also see that Djokovic has more speed and angel with his groundstroke now, it prove that monstertruck's point. Nadal has less reaction time in evey shot against Djokovic now.

Yup then I guess it is twofold then. Rafa is definitely not hitting as deep and Nole is definitely faster now

Sorry I mofiy my post during you commenting my comment. So I separate previous comment into two comment.
I think the rising question and arugment monstertruck try to say is following questions.

Is Nadal groundstrok really decline or it is just because Djokovic improve his groundstroke with a lot more speed make Nadal looks like he is decline? Or maybe both?

For me, I will agree more monstertruck's point as I review a lot of vedio (take hours to do so). Because I find that Nadal tend to have problem with high speed groundstroke and Djokovic improve his groundstroke speed force Nadal has short respond.

[falcon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ8AKFCtiVc&feature=related

This was one video I got....you see the depth in the Rafa shots and the ripper of backhands he is producing here. I know this is a different Nole we are talking about here, and that's the very reason why Rafa is losing his confidence and is not willing to hit anything on the backhand side, prefering to go around it and go for a forehand instead.

I think it is because Djokovic is able to make crossing backhand when Nadal use forehand attack Djokovic's backhand now. It is part of Nadal groundstroke decline I believe. Nadal certainly hit much more heavier in that vedio and allow him to set up backhand winner.

But I also see that Djokovic has more speed and angel with his groundstroke now, it prove that monstertruck's point. Nadal has less reaction time in evey shot against Djokovic now.

Yup then I guess it is twofold then. Rafa is definitely not hitting as deep and Nole is definitely faster now

Sorry I mofiy my post during you commenting my comment. So I separate previous comment into two comment.
I think the rising question and arugment monstertruck try to say is following questions.

Is Nadal groundstrok really decline or it is just because Djokovic improve his groundstroke with a lot more speed make Nadal looks like he is decline? Or maybe both?

For me, I will agree more monstertruck's point as I review a lot of vedio (take hours to do so). Because I find that Nadal tend to have problem with high speed groundstroke and Djokovic improve his groundstroke speed force Nadal has short respond.

I still need more evidence. I have seen a lot of videos too....while I agree completely that Nole is now a superb players, playing extremely well off both flanks, I still feel that Rafa is not hitting the forehand flat and his backhand is not up there too. Nothing to take away from Nole's fantastic rise.

[williamchung7]

[youtube]lY27u0y_BUA[/youtube]

[youtube]2-nvzJ7p97w[/youtube]

[monstertruck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ8AKFCtiVc&feature=related

This was one video I got....you see the depth in the Rafa shots and the ripper of backhands he is producing here. I know this is a different Nole we are talking about here, and that's the very reason why Rafa is losing his confidence and is not willing to hit anything on the backhand side, prefering to go around it and go for a forehand instead.

Good work Falc!
After watching the point only once, here's what I saw.
Raf-  very nice first serve pulling Nole off the court.  Immediately Nadal is in charge of the point.  I remember seeing a couple of Raf thumping topspin FH's deep in the court (maintaining his offensive position in the court).  1 slice BH and perhaps another neutral ball.  Then into a crosscourt rally with his BH that gives him all the time in the world and eventually hits a winner.

A second look confirms my intial observations.  Nadal is firmly in control with the exception of a let cord which he neutralizes with the BH slice.  Note the players position relative to the baseline throughout the point.  It's exactly opposite in the past 2 finals with Nole dominating the points immediately and stalking the baseline while Nadal scrambles, plays defense, and has no time to neutralize.

[monstertruck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ8AKFCtiVc&feature=related

This was one video I got....you see the depth in the Rafa shots and the ripper of backhands he is producing here. I know this is a different Nole we are talking about here, and that's the very reason why Rafa is losing his confidence and is not willing to hit anything on the backhand side, prefering to go around it and go for a forehand instead.

I think it is because Djokovic is able to make crossing backhand when Nadal use forehand attack Djokovic's backhand now.
I see that Djokovic has more speed and angel with his groundstroke now, it prove that monstertruck's point. Nadal has less reaction time to set up evey shot against Djokovic now. I think it is monstertruck try to say in his comment.

I think you're spot on with your observations in the earlier post.
The players Raf typically loses to are those who serve well, return well, hit with pace and can play the ball DTL off either wing.  4 factors that reduce the time Nadal has to set up for his very time consuming strokes. 

[monstertruck]

williamchung HOFer 


There's some really good stuff in this thread.

Kinda neat, an actual discussion about tennis....

[williamchung7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ8AKFCtiVc&feature=related

This was one video I got....you see the depth in the Rafa shots and the ripper of backhands he is producing here. I know this is a different Nole we are talking about here, and that's the very reason why Rafa is losing his confidence and is not willing to hit anything on the backhand side, prefering to go around it and go for a forehand instead.

I think it is because Djokovic is able to make crossing backhand when Nadal use forehand attack Djokovic's backhand now.
I see that Djokovic has more speed and angel with his groundstroke now, it prove that monstertruck's point. Nadal has less reaction time to set up evey shot against Djokovic now. I think it is monstertruck try to say in his comment.

I think you're spot on with your observations in the earlier post.
The players Raf typically loses to are those who serve well, return well, hit with pace and can play the ball DTL off either wing.  4 factors that reduce the time Nadal has to set up for his very time consuming strokes.

Yes, I get similar feeling when I comment my earlier post in this thread, but it is based on memory. And I see you and falcon look like have some arugments so I turn back and review all matches Nadal lost in the past and also the matchese with Federer and Djokovic. I try to make my logic and comment clearer. 

[swish]

There's a lot of factors going into Nadal's BH, some of them could be he's just not trying to use it to full effect but setting up his FH.

In any case it isn't very effective and he needs to get that wing working to full effect.

He has had plenty of chances to put some pace and angles on the BH but perhaps with Nole's great movement it isn't the best shot for Nadal so he doesn't use it that way.

I don't know if it's by Nadal's design or if Nadal just can't get it going.

I do know Nadal's BH isn't producing the shots it can, even on balls that aren't hit hard.

The other point with any hard hitter, Nadal doesn't have the time he needs to get a full swing.
His shot mechanics require him to wind up.

Nadal's movement has to be there, he can't really put everything on the ball unless he he can get to the ball quickly, one of the reasons Davydenko gave him problems with taking the ball early.

Whatever the reason or reasons, I just don't see the BH as working effectively now, give credit to Djokovic for pressuring that wing.