Author Topic: do you believe in God?  (Read 13810 times)

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Offline FedFanForever

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2011, 12:38:27 PM »
One thing I know for sure - God created Rafael Nadal to torment Roger Federer.  :)~
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline Emma

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2011, 12:39:40 PM »
ok, sorry Emma i have overstepped the mark

If I were born in 1932 then I'd be almost 80 years old now. wow - if my mind works the same way when I actually turn 80, I'll be so glad but I am fairly sure I will either die in my 60s or 50s. Or even 40s. I don't think I will die of any diseases but it will be some sort of accident.
 
Gawd, I'll be dead one day....aww that sucks..

Oh no it doesn't...you'll be born again  :rofl_2:

Oh no, I don't want to come back. I am sure I have redeemed myself. I've been very careful this time.

No worries - it's not so easy to rattle Emma's cage. I am most patient when I am under attack.  :)~
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Offline Emma

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2011, 12:42:07 PM »
One thing I know for sure - God created Rafael Nadal to torment Roger Federer.  :)~

And then God created Novak Djokovic to torment Rafael Nadal.

Novak will now have to face his tormentor in 2012. Quite apparently it is also the year of the dooms.

Holly cow! we are all going to die!
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Offline FedFanForever

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2011, 12:46:53 PM »
2012 is the last year of the Mayan calendar. Apparently that's when the Murians will return and kill us all. If we can survive that, the human race has a chance.
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2011, 01:31:33 PM »
of course it matters, societies that do chop the end of their children's dicks, prevent women from driving or voting, blow up buildings, torture people to protect their immortal soul, tell them being homosexual is a thought crime, need i go on?

how does it matter if someone believes or not in God?
Here you are talking about religious fanaticism. There is a huge difference, mind you. I can believe in a superior power controlling me, without following any religious order, which means i will not be a barbarian, which you accuse of people believing in God. Had you asked, are you following the traditions of the past, the answers you would have got might be different.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 01:36:00 PM by falcon »


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Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2011, 01:34:07 PM »
how does it matter if someone believes or not in God?

Of course it matters. In fact it matter the most. You are going to shape your life based on what you believe after all.
True, what I meant was, why would another person be bothered about my beliefs? I might choose to believe in God. It should not bother a third person.


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Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2011, 04:29:54 PM »
i'm not accusing anyone of being a barbarian i simply gave examples of things done in the name of religion.
Do you believe the Hindu cast system is fanatical? do you think the state of affairs in Northern Ireland in which there is animosity between the religious divide is fanatical? Do you think that the Iran as a theocratic state is fanatical?
Do you think the inertia that leads to poverty and oppression in Palestine is fanatical? Do you think the teaching that condoms don't stop aids as dictated by the catholic church is fanatical? 
The example's iv'e given vary in the extent to which they subordinate or harm humanity, but to claim it's a fanatical element of religion that is dangerous is disingenuous.
Some religions are relatively benign, like for example the Church of England, but many aren't and even he C OF E with it's watered down doctrines exerts a malign pull on it's members.

So why do you believe there's a superior power controlling you?

of course it matters, societies that do chop the end of their children's dicks, prevent women from driving or voting, blow up buildings, torture people to protect their immortal soul, tell them being homosexual is a thought crime, need i go on?

how does it matter if someone believes or not in God?
Here you are talking about religious fanaticism. There is a huge difference, mind you. I can believe in a superior power controlling me, without following any religious order, which means i will not be a barbarian, which you accuse of people believing in God. Had you asked, are you following the traditions of the past, the answers you would have got might be different.
I am a lighthouse worn by the weather and the waves
And though I'm empty I still warn the sailors on their way

Offline huntingyou

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2011, 05:50:17 PM »
I liked it how Jesse addresses pawan as pawan 89.  :rofl_2:  it was hilarious!
 
oh pawan, when are you going to get rid of those two precious numbers of yours? It's soooooooooooo robotic.
 
Boink boink, I am Pawan 89. What is your name please. Hello, I am Emma 32. Boink.
 
^^ imagine that.  :rofl_2:
 
but hunting tops the chart with "Sir". Dear Lord, have we gone all formal then? what's next? Your highness? madam? praise the Lord? lololol.
 
Kind sir, do I know you? You seem familiar, no?
 
Oh you guys are such little tease.  :)~

Miss Emma, Am I being over the top?  :innocent:

"hunting" has a bad reputation in this part of the world, I thought addressing somebody with very alike understanding of religion with Sir was ok.

Do we understand each other Miss? :)) 

Offline huntingyou

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2011, 06:06:29 PM »
i'm not accusing anyone of being a barbarian i simply gave examples of things done in the name of religion.
Do you believe the Hindu cast system is fanatical? do you think the state of affairs in Northern Ireland in which there is animosity between the religious divide is fanatical? Do you think that the Iran as a theocratic state is fanatical?
Do you think the inertia that leads to poverty and oppression in Palestine is fanatical? Do you think the teaching that condoms don't stop aids as dictated by the catholic church is fanatical? 
The example's iv'e given vary in the extent to which they subordinate or harm humanity, but to claim it's a fanatical element of religion that is dangerous is disingenuous.
Some religions are relatively benign, like for example the Church of England, but many aren't and even he C OF E with it's watered down doctrines exerts a malign pull on it's members.

So why do you believe there's a superior power controlling you?

of course it matters, societies that do chop the end of their children's dicks, prevent women from driving or voting, blow up buildings, torture people to protect their immortal soul, tell them being homosexual is a thought crime, need i go on?

how does it matter if someone believes or not in God?
Here you are talking about religious fanaticism. There is a huge difference, mind you. I can believe in a superior power controlling me, without following any religious order, which means i will not be a barbarian, which you accuse of people believing in God. Had you asked, are you following the traditions of the past, the answers you would have got might be different.

You have nailed religion right in the butt; you read a lot I take.

My initial comment on spiritualism was not to defend the position of a "living God" but to bring a point about the vast ignorance of human beings in relation to our universe and everything in it. Ancient civilizations seems in some aspect more advance than us despite the scientific community insistence on the contrary; to this day the Egyptian Pyramid laughs in the face of the modern man and his tools just to name an example.

Personally, I think there is more than a material world; science to this point can "understand" the concept of energy, although just peeling the surface. There is too much recorded data and anecdotes that deals with the "super natural" to just dismiss the whole spiritual concept as another fiction of religion.


Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2011, 07:27:47 PM »
i'm not accusing anyone of being a barbarian i simply gave examples of things done in the name of religion.
Do you believe the Hindu cast system is fanatical? do you think the state of affairs in Northern Ireland in which there is animosity between the religious divide is fanatical? Do you think that the Iran as a theocratic state is fanatical?
Do you think the inertia that leads to poverty and oppression in Palestine is fanatical? Do you think the teaching that condoms don't stop aids as dictated by the catholic church is fanatical? 
The example's iv'e given vary in the extent to which they subordinate or harm humanity, but to claim it's a fanatical element of religion that is dangerous is disingenuous.
Some religions are relatively benign, like for example the Church of England, but many aren't and even he C OF E with it's watered down doctrines exerts a malign pull on it's members.

So why do you believe there's a superior power controlling you?



of course it matters, societies that do chop the end of their children's dicks, prevent women from driving or voting, blow up buildings, torture people to protect their immortal soul, tell them being homosexual is a thought crime, need i go on?

how does it matter if someone believes or not in God?
Here you are talking about religious fanaticism. There is a huge difference, mind you. I can believe in a superior power controlling me, without following any religious order, which means i will not be a barbarian, which you accuse of people believing in God. Had you asked, are you following the traditions of the past, the answers you would have got might be different.

I am a Hindu and I can answer only that. Do I believe in the caste system? I totally do. There is a reason with which this idea was brought in. If you want me to elaborate on that, I certainly will. Now discrimination based on the caste system is wrong. But the idea of caste system was brought in with a noble intention. Its important to look into facts before criticising something for I am sure you have no idea about Vedic culture at all. Same goes with any religion (again, this is religion we are talking about, and nothing to do with God. Having studied in a Catholic school, I know that Christianity preaches only love and the fact that there are people 'hating' homosexuality is actually opposite to the very ideology of love preached by the religion. Again, hailing from a city that is populated by a lot of muslims, I am also familiar with the religion and I have in my circle of friends a lot of staunch muslims who are very very nice people. The idea that you are stating here is all pretty skewed and 'typical' to say the least. Again, this was all about religion. One can believe in a God and not believe in religion and I know many such people.


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Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2011, 07:34:26 PM »
One thing I still don't understand is why you are mixing up religion with God. As for your comment of fanaticism, when people do things and justify it in the name of religion, its the most horrible thing. Then people who are not familiar with the religion say that its the religion that's saying rubbish.


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Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2011, 05:42:39 PM »
We're talking about the reality of the caste system and how it discriminates, they've tried to outlaw it in India but the prejudice still exists, it also exists in other countries like Nepal. It's a system that stands at odds with the values of the enlightenment, and with human nature. Of course many Hindus have spoken out against it, so what? that doesn't mean the fanaticism or unfairness aren't still part of that religion. Religions aren't a fixed menu they're a la carte, give me the bible or Koran or the Talmud and enough time and i'll show you different versions of how humans should live according to each of those books. .
I have talked about fanaticism, because fanaticism seems to play a big role in religion.  Of course not all religious people are fanatical, so what?

i'm not accusing anyone of being a barbarian i simply gave examples of things done in the name of religion.
Do you believe the Hindu cast system is fanatical? do you think the state of affairs in Northern Ireland in which there is animosity between the religious divide is fanatical? Do you think that the Iran as a theocratic state is fanatical?
Do you think the inertia that leads to poverty and oppression in Palestine is fanatical? Do you think the teaching that condoms don't stop aids as dictated by the catholic church is fanatical? 
The example's iv'e given vary in the extent to which they subordinate or harm humanity, but to claim it's a fanatical element of religion that is dangerous is disingenuous.
Some religions are relatively benign, like for example the Church of England, but many aren't and even he C OF E with it's watered down doctrines exerts a malign pull on it's members.

So why do you believe there's a superior power controlling you?



of course it matters, societies that do chop the end of their children's dicks, prevent women from driving or voting, blow up buildings, torture people to protect their immortal soul, tell them being homosexual is a thought crime, need i go on?

how does it matter if someone believes or not in God?
Here you are talking about religious fanaticism. There is a huge difference, mind you. I can believe in a superior power controlling me, without following any religious order, which means i will not be a barbarian, which you accuse of people believing in God. Had you asked, are you following the traditions of the past, the answers you would have got might be different.

I am a Hindu and I can answer only that. Do I believe in the caste system? I totally do. There is a reason with which this idea was brought in. If you want me to elaborate on that, I certainly will. Now discrimination based on the caste system is wrong. But the idea of caste system was brought in with a noble intention. Its important to look into facts before criticising something for I am sure you have no idea about Vedic culture at all. Same goes with any religion (again, this is religion we are talking about, and nothing to do with God. Having studied in a Catholic school, I know that Christianity preaches only love and the fact that there are people 'hating' homosexuality is actually opposite to the very ideology of love preached by the religion. Again, hailing from a city that is populated by a lot of muslims, I am also familiar with the religion and I have in my circle of friends a lot of staunch muslims who are very very nice people. The idea that you are stating here is all pretty skewed and 'typical' to say the least. Again, this was all about religion. One can believe in a God and not believe in religion and I know many such people.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 05:56:43 PM by jesse james »
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Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2011, 05:45:56 PM »
I don't know whether you've ever noticed, god and religions tend to come as a package. The overwhelming history and contemporary view of God is usually understood from a religious perspective.
Some people believe in god but aren't, so be it, but the question for them is, what is it they are believing in?

One thing I still don't understand is why you are mixing up religion with God. As for your comment of fanaticism, when people do things and justify it in the name of religion, its the most horrible thing. Then people who are not familiar with the religion say that its the religion that's saying rubbish.
I am a lighthouse worn by the weather and the waves
And though I'm empty I still warn the sailors on their way

Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2011, 05:55:26 PM »
Science presents us with metaphor's, the mathematical model that it presents may correspond to the reality of the universe, but we, and by we i mean scientists too, cannot truly 'know' the universe. The idea of an electron, is just that-an idea, it's meant as a shorthand or longhand for the mathematics, but energy at that level is an epistemological mystery, . Science can make extraordinary predictions about nature matter, but it's the mind that is the ultimate arbiter.
I think remember the famous physicist Richard Fynman talking about the knowledge of reality being like an eternally opening onion with layers being perpetually unfolded to reveal yet more underneath, and he has fine with that.
But we can't place our trust in that which we don't know, we have to live with what we can. 

i'm not accusing anyone of being a barbarian i simply gave examples of things done in the name of religion.
Do you believe the Hindu cast system is fanatical? do you think the state of affairs in Northern Ireland in which there is animosity between the religious divide is fanatical? Do you think that the Iran as a theocratic state is fanatical?
Do you think the inertia that leads to poverty and oppression in Palestine is fanatical? Do you think the teaching that condoms don't stop aids as dictated by the catholic church is fanatical? 
The example's iv'e given vary in the extent to which they subordinate or harm humanity, but to claim it's a fanatical element of religion that is dangerous is disingenuous.
Some religions are relatively benign, like for example the Church of England, but many aren't and even he C OF E with it's watered down doctrines exerts a malign pull on it's members.

So why do you believe there's a superior power controlling you?

of course it matters, societies that do chop the end of their children's dicks, prevent women from driving or voting, blow up buildings, torture people to protect their immortal soul, tell them being homosexual is a thought crime, need i go on?

how does it matter if someone believes or not in God?
Here you are talking about religious fanaticism. There is a huge difference, mind you. I can believe in a superior power controlling me, without following any religious order, which means i will not be a barbarian, which you accuse of people believing in God. Had you asked, are you following the traditions of the past, the answers you would have got might be different.

You have nailed religion right in the butt; you read a lot I take.

My initial comment on spiritualism was not to defend the position of a "living God" but to bring a point about the vast ignorance of human beings in relation to our universe and everything in it. Ancient civilizations seems in some aspect more advance than us despite the scientific community insistence on the contrary; to this day the Egyptian Pyramid laughs in the face of the modern man and his tools just to name an example.

Personally, I think there is more than a material world; science to this point can "understand" the concept of energy, although just peeling the surface. There is too much recorded data and anecdotes that deals with the "super natural" to just dismiss the whole spiritual concept as another fiction of religion.
I am a lighthouse worn by the weather and the waves
And though I'm empty I still warn the sailors on their way

Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2011, 06:18:49 PM »
We're talking about the reality of the caste system and how it discriminates, they've tried to outlaw it in India but the prejudice still exists, it also exists in other countries like Nepal. It's a system that stands at odds with the values of the enlightenment, and with human nature. Of course many Hindus have spoken out against it, so what? that doesn't mean the fanaticism or unfairness aren't still part of that religion. Religions aren't a fixed menu they're a la carte, give me the bible or Koran or the Talmud and enough time and i'll show you different versions of how humans should live according to each of those books. .
I have talked about fanaticism, because fanaticism seems to play a big role in religion.  Of course not all religious people are fanatical, so what?

i'm not accusing anyone of being a barbarian i simply gave examples of things done in the name of religion.
Do you believe the Hindu cast system is fanatical? do you think the state of affairs in Northern Ireland in which there is animosity between the religious divide is fanatical? Do you think that the Iran as a theocratic state is fanatical?
Do you think the inertia that leads to poverty and oppression in Palestine is fanatical? Do you think the teaching that condoms don't stop aids as dictated by the catholic church is fanatical? 
The example's iv'e given vary in the extent to which they subordinate or harm humanity, but to claim it's a fanatical element of religion that is dangerous is disingenuous.
Some religions are relatively benign, like for example the Church of England, but many aren't and even he C OF E with it's watered down doctrines exerts a malign pull on it's members.

So why do you believe there's a superior power controlling you?



of course it matters, societies that do chop the end of their children's dicks, prevent women from driving or voting, blow up buildings, torture people to protect their immortal soul, tell them being homosexual is a thought crime, need i go on?

how does it matter if someone believes or not in God?
Here you are talking about religious fanaticism. There is a huge difference, mind you. I can believe in a superior power controlling me, without following any religious order, which means i will not be a barbarian, which you accuse of people believing in God. Had you asked, are you following the traditions of the past, the answers you would have got might be different.

I am a Hindu and I can answer only that. Do I believe in the caste system? I totally do. There is a reason with which this idea was brought in. If you want me to elaborate on that, I certainly will. Now discrimination based on the caste system is wrong. But the idea of caste system was brought in with a noble intention. Its important to look into facts before criticising something for I am sure you have no idea about Vedic culture at all. Same goes with any religion (again, this is religion we are talking about, and nothing to do with God. Having studied in a Catholic school, I know that Christianity preaches only love and the fact that there are people 'hating' homosexuality is actually opposite to the very ideology of love preached by the religion. Again, hailing from a city that is populated by a lot of muslims, I am also familiar with the religion and I have in my circle of friends a lot of staunch muslims who are very very nice people. The idea that you are stating here is all pretty skewed and 'typical' to say the least. Again, this was all about religion. One can believe in a God and not believe in religion and I know many such people.

So that's something that some skewed minded people are inducing, right? By standards 'set' by the very skewed people, I belong to the 'highest' caste but I wouldn't mind falling at the feet of a person of the 'lowest' caste who  is worthy of it. My religion ITSELF says that a person of the lowest caste can by his virtue be treated higher than an ill behaving upper caste person. So just because a few people are having stupid ideas and are vocal about it, it doesn't mean that it is something preached by the religion. The very people who are discriminating on the basis of caste system actually have very little idea about religion. They take things out of context and spread these things and influence people who are completely ignorant. The unfairness or fanaticism you talk about are NOT part of religion but part of SOME fools.



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Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2011, 06:25:37 PM »
I don't know whether you've ever noticed, god and religions tend to come as a package. The overwhelming history and contemporary view of God is usually understood from a religious perspective.
Some people believe in god but aren't, so be it, but the question for them is, what is it they are believing in?

One thing I still don't understand is why you are mixing up religion with God. As for your comment of fanaticism, when people do things and justify it in the name of religion, its the most horrible thing. Then people who are not familiar with the religion say that its the religion that's saying rubbish.

Ok, so this is where you are wrong. Hinduism and Buddhism both are divided into two parts. The first part leads you to live the 'correct' life...for people who do not have the scientific temper to dig deep into existentialism. The second part and the important part has nothing to do with rituals, people, society or such rubbish because it dismisses all these things entirely. If you dig deep into both religions, there is NO concept of God.

Part two of your question, we all believe in something or the other. Are you skeptical of everything? You believe in something (you atleast believe that your hand will take the food to your mouth). The problem with skeptics is that they think they are being very rational and intelligent, when at the end of the day they are all the way I was 5 years ago - an egoistic fool who thought too highly of my own ability. As a researcher, I believed in science more than anything and all the Feynmans, De Cartiers or Einsteins you talk about were once legends in my view. I realised that they couldn't answer 1% of the questions answered by a Buddha, Krishna or Jesus. Go figure.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 06:30:50 PM by falcon »


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Offline huntingyou

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #76 on: November 16, 2011, 02:15:20 AM »
So that's something that some skewed minded people are inducing, right? By standards 'set' by the very skewed people, I belong to the 'highest' caste but I wouldn't mind falling at the feet of a person of the 'lowest' caste who  is worthy of it. My religion ITSELF says that a person of the lowest caste can by his virtue be treated higher than an ill behaving upper caste person. So just because a few people are having stupid ideas and are vocal about it, it doesn't mean that it is something preached by the religion. The very people who are discriminating on the basis of caste system actually have very little idea about religion. They take things out of context and spread these things and influence people who are completely ignorant. The unfairness or fanaticism you talk about are NOT part of religion but part of SOME fools.

Fanaticism is at the heart of religion, to deny it is to deny their fundamental reason for existence which is to "convert" as many as possible to their views; at least the most influential religions are. You only have to read history to see all the evidence of what religion inspire people to do; both Hitler and Stalin seem benign beings compare to the more influential religions throughout human history. The Dark Ages weren't called with such term because it sounded cool......

As far as the Caste system is concern, it goes against Liberalism and everything the enlighment movement brought to civilization. As a matter of fact, Buddha "preached" against the injustice of such barbaric code in civil society. Most reformers throughout India's political history launched their platform against the injustice of it.  To argue for the caste system is as intelligent as to argue for apartheid, slavery, women treatmen in Muslim countries and any other form of segregation you can name.

Finally, Buddha, Krishna and Jesus achievements in contrast to modern scientists like Einsteins or Tesla pale in comparison...is a no contest. Morality, virtue and philosophy are not unique to Buddha (ever heard of those Greek philosophers?); won't even bother to mention Jesus and Krishna since their existence as in real human beings is extremely debatable; thank you for not mentioning Mithra which is just the same myth in a different time with different people.

Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #77 on: November 16, 2011, 08:53:21 AM »
What youíve given is a refinement of your previous post, so i have to give a refinement of my previous answer.
I have never met or heard of a religious person who didnít think their branch or interpretation of their religion wasnít correct.
Every aspect of religious fanaticism is either justified by itís adherents or denounced by those within the religion who wish disclaim association with that fanaticism. Of course you want to condemn some aspects of your religion, and cling to it's virtues, but that doesnít mean those malign aspects donít exist-and it doesnít stop those fanatics from defending their position, and proclaiming it as the truth.
But the point I made is that all religions can be malign or benign, itís just a question of which parts you look at or care to support-that was my point about religions being Ďa la carteí.
So the fact that Hinduism has socially divisive aspects as well as less abhorrent manifestations is neither here nor there.
The destructive power of religion can be brutal or tempered by those less fanatical within or without the religon-these days by modernity, which has had at least some small nullifying effect on religion.
And sometimes what look like small theological divisions can be as dangerous as completely different theistic traditions.
Take Catholicism and the reformed churches, look at how their divide has split communities, led to violence, torture. And yet itís the same religion Ďinterpretedí in different ways.
I find the notion of hierarchy within the caste system-however mitigated, grotesque and at odds with the modern enlightenment notion of egalitarianism. Whether that kind of anti-egalitarianism is bequeathed as a birthright or imposed by an authoritarian regime doesnít matter, it has the same anti-human stench that has followed all societies since man became civilised enough to have religion.





We're talking about the reality of the caste system and how it discriminates, they've tried to outlaw it in India but the prejudice still exists, it also exists in other countries like Nepal. It's a system that stands at odds with the values of the enlightenment, and with human nature. Of course many Hindus have spoken out against it, so what? that doesn't mean the fanaticism or unfairness aren't still part of that religion. Religions aren't a fixed menu they're a la carte, give me the bible or Koran or the Talmud and enough time and i'll show you different versions of how humans should live according to each of those books. .
I have talked about fanaticism, because fanaticism seems to play a big role in religion.  Of course not all religious people are fanatical, so what?

i'm not accusing anyone of being a barbarian i simply gave examples of things done in the name of religion.
Do you believe the Hindu cast system is fanatical? do you think the state of affairs in Northern Ireland in which there is animosity between the religious divide is fanatical? Do you think that the Iran as a theocratic state is fanatical?
Do you think the inertia that leads to poverty and oppression in Palestine is fanatical? Do you think the teaching that condoms don't stop aids as dictated by the catholic church is fanatical? 
The example's iv'e given vary in the extent to which they subordinate or harm humanity, but to claim it's a fanatical element of religion that is dangerous is disingenuous.
Some religions are relatively benign, like for example the Church of England, but many aren't and even he C OF E with it's watered down doctrines exerts a malign pull on it's members.

So why do you believe there's a superior power controlling you?



of course it matters, societies that do chop the end of their children's dicks, prevent women from driving or voting, blow up buildings, torture people to protect their immortal soul, tell them being homosexual is a thought crime, need i go on?

how does it matter if someone believes or not in God?
Here you are talking about religious fanaticism. There is a huge difference, mind you. I can believe in a superior power controlling me, without following any religious order, which means i will not be a barbarian, which you accuse of people believing in God. Had you asked, are you following the traditions of the past, the answers you would have got might be different.

I am a Hindu and I can answer only that. Do I believe in the caste system? I totally do. There is a reason with which this idea was brought in. If you want me to elaborate on that, I certainly will. Now discrimination based on the caste system is wrong. But the idea of caste system was brought in with a noble intention. Its important to look into facts before criticising something for I am sure you have no idea about Vedic culture at all. Same goes with any religion (again, this is religion we are talking about, and nothing to do with God. Having studied in a Catholic school, I know that Christianity preaches only love and the fact that there are people 'hating' homosexuality is actually opposite to the very ideology of love preached by the religion. Again, hailing from a city that is populated by a lot of muslims, I am also familiar with the religion and I have in my circle of friends a lot of staunch muslims who are very very nice people. The idea that you are stating here is all pretty skewed and 'typical' to say the least. Again, this was all about religion. One can believe in a God and not believe in religion and I know many such people.

So that's something that some skewed minded people are inducing, right? By standards 'set' by the very skewed people, I belong to the 'highest' caste but I wouldn't mind falling at the feet of a person of the 'lowest' caste who  is worthy of it. My religion ITSELF says that a person of the lowest caste can by his virtue be treated higher than an ill behaving upper caste person. So just because a few people are having stupid ideas and are vocal about it, it doesn't mean that it is something preached by the religion. The very people who are discriminating on the basis of caste system actually have very little idea about religion. They take things out of context and spread these things and influence people who are completely ignorant. The unfairness or fanaticism you talk about are NOT part of religion but part of SOME fools.
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Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #78 on: November 16, 2011, 09:57:50 AM »
when you guys are atheists to begin with and have never dug deep into buddhism or hinduism, how can you even argue? How many of you have read the dharmasutras of buddhism or the upanishads of hinduism? When you are done with that, I welcome you to argue, till then for me its like banging my head against a wall because both of you are talking about what the religions 'looks like' today, which is so different from the fundamental tenets of the religions itself. I have nothing to condemn against either religion.

Again, I have never argued for discrimination based on caste system. I am arguing for the reason for which it was brought in with. Discrimination is stupid. Once you know why the idea was brought in, both of you wouldn't be arguing in a way that is best termed silly.


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Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #79 on: November 16, 2011, 10:58:53 AM »
Well science certainly doesnít have all answers, thatís obvious in fact iíve already claimed it doesnít on this thread.
But just because scientific rationalism canít answer every question we might have about the human condition doesnít mean we throw the preverbal bath water out with the baby.   

Jesus, Buddha etc were men, morality pertains to humans, itís a human construct and one can also throw in anyone from Socrates, Mill, or Marx and beyond who also shaped human civilisation in terms of their moral and social thinking.
Christ isnít a philosopher, he is the revelation of the Jewish prophacies, he is the incarnation of god (albiet post facto)-it isnít his thinking that is uniquelly compelling (much of his teaching is borrowed) itís the belief that his followers have that he is divine.
The distinction between Jesus and Marx, for example, is that Marxís interpretation of the world
is based on an emperical view of how humans are, and history etc, we may or may not reject this, but
we can understand itís tenets,whereas the edicts of Jesus are based on a notion of an eternal and loving deity, parts of his Ďphilosophyí can be interpreted in the light of secular modernity, but the basis is still a supernatural entity who gives us a series of edicts and we either comply, or risk eternal damnation-that even undermines our freewill, who would choose hell?
Bhudda and ChristĎs teaching of the non resistance of evil i find repellent. If evil exists it should be challenged, iím not about to turn the other cheek, nor do i believe telling a child they are disabled because of what they did in another life-thatís unacceptable .
Bhuddism isnít a religion in the technical sense, thatís true, but while he was clearly a wise men, thereís no need to resort to metaphysical explanations from 3,000 years ago, some of which are wise, but many do go against common sense. 
 
You canít apply scientific rationalism to the human condition, but you can use reason to take us on that journey so far, and by rejecting it youíre throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I may be wrong, but what youíre actually seem to be rejecting is your earlier self.   




I don't know whether you've ever noticed, god and religions tend to come as a package. The overwhelming history and contemporary view of God is usually understood from a religious perspective.
Some people believe in god but aren't, so be it, but the question for them is, what is it they are believing in?

One thing I still don't understand is why you are mixing up religion with God. As for your comment of fanaticism, when people do things and justify it in the name of religion, its the most horrible thing. Then people who are not familiar with the religion say that its the religion that's saying rubbish.

Ok, so this is where you are wrong. Hinduism and Buddhism both are divided into two parts. The first part leads you to live the 'correct' life...for people who do not have the scientific temper to dig deep into existentialism. The second part and the important part has nothing to do with rituals, people, society or such rubbish because it dismisses all these things entirely. If you dig deep into both religions, there is NO concept of God.

Part two of your question, we all believe in something or the other. Are you skeptical of everything? You believe in something (you atleast believe that your hand will take the food to your mouth). The problem with skeptics is that they think they are being very rational and intelligent, when at the end of the day they are all the way I was 5 years ago - an egoistic fool who thought too highly of my own ability. As a researcher, I believed in science more than anything and all the Feynmans, De Cartiers or Einsteins you talk about were once legends in my view. I realised that they couldn't answer 1% of the questions answered by a Buddha, Krishna or Jesus. Go figure.
I am a lighthouse worn by the weather and the waves
And though I'm empty I still warn the sailors on their way