Author Topic: do you believe in God?  (Read 13418 times)

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Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2011, 11:07:32 AM »
i havnít read every religious text in existence, neither have you, but i know plenty about how it manifests itself in the real world as it really is.
You only have to look at the reality of Pakistan and India to know the role of Islam and Hinduism in shaping animosity between the peoples.
Itís already been stated that some religions are relatively benign, but that doesnít absolve the ones that arenít , does it.
I don't doubt the role of religon as a placibo, but that's all it is. 



when you guys are atheists to begin with and have never dug deep into buddhism or hinduism, how can you even argue? How many of you have read the dharmasutras of buddhism or the upanishads of hinduism? When you are done with that, I welcome you to argue, till then for me its like banging my head against a wall because both of you are talking about what the religions 'looks like' today, which is so different from the fundamental tenets of the religions itself. I have nothing to condemn against either religion.

Again, I have never argued for discrimination based on caste system. I am arguing for the reason for which it was brought in with. Discrimination is stupid. Once you know why the idea was brought in, both of you wouldn't be arguing in a way that is best termed silly.
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Offline Emma

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2011, 12:20:55 PM »
According to Einstein - Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.
 
Fanaticism is not the heart of religion. Fantatism lies within human beings. Religion is just a tool that certain human beings interpret the way it suits their needs and nothing more. Religion is a la scapegoat at best. There are plenty of atheists out there who are bad to the core.

If I write a book, it can become a cult classic or just a regular book. How you interpret it, define it and then live by it is up to you because no one is forcing this on to you. So if you choose it the way it feeds your needs however twisted; you will become a fanatic. The problem lies within. Blaming everything to religion does not own up responsibilities as usual because we, human beings, are primarily responsible for everything that is good or bad out there. People are easily influenced and it's because only a few of those who are more intelligent than the rest. Hitler was able to influence whole Germany in his favour and it's been the study of many students since then who thrive on such power. He was able to wipe out a nation/religion with such power after all. Was the religion he followed responsible in this case? or that he was a bad person to begin with and twisted everything in his favour to feed off his own desires/lackings etc.?

In any case, we can perfectly have a discussion on God alone without the religion and I thought that was the intention.
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Offline pawan89

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2011, 12:33:09 PM »
I like this thread, sorry I can't contribute more but falcon and jj and hunting have all brought up some amazing points.

jj: religion and god are packaged together but they don't need to be. that's just what happens. what falcon says about hinduism and buddhism is true, and thies goes for all religions, the essence is not about god but something deeper and far more useful that most people don't have time for. If you can't see god then it's what god stands for that would make the impact, and most people don't take time to do this. just happy to end at god and equate god and religion and boom done.

this brings me to falcon: when arguing against religion and what it has done today, or even the bad impact of the god/religion package, what does it matter what the essence of it is if no one is educated enough to enlightened enough to think about it? If some guy in the name of god blows up a place and I lose my family because of it.. what does it matter that this guy's religion was fundamentally pure and sacred? We live in a human world, everything's human perspective. In fact you being able to realize that there's more is a compliment to your capacity to view things in a different perspective, but all that perspective won't matter if there's others who don't see eye to eye and interfere with your life in less than ideal ways. There's too much in this thread for me to touch upon and obviously i see your point, especially coming from a similar background, but to answer the question of the thread, what does my belief in god or the beliefs in the purity of religions do for me if i can't achieve a  level of power/existence that puts me beyond the circumstances and consequences of every other fool out there? So I guess the question becomes, as i said before, do we NEED to, do we GAIN from believing in god? If yes, then we will choose to believe in god. If no, we will choose not to believe in god. Looking at the world today and seeing how close it is to hell, it's easy to say there's no point believing in god. But then again, all the good people you do meet - and there's more good ones than bad ones, its just the bad ones have more impact - god/religion probably had some effect on the way they are, and why they are good to begin with. And the world is an everyday ongoing 'miracle' of such 'un-explainable' things as happiness and contentment and people helping each other and friendship and love which really does not have any other solid explanation.


Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2011, 12:38:49 PM »
i havnít read every religious text in existence, neither have you, but i know plenty about how it manifests itself in the real world as it really is.
You only have to look at the reality of Pakistan and India to know the role of Islam and Hinduism in shaping animosity between the peoples.
Itís already been stated that some religions are relatively benign, but that doesnít absolve the ones that arenít , does it.
I don't doubt the role of religon as a placibo, but that's all it is. 



when you guys are atheists to begin with and have never dug deep into buddhism or hinduism, how can you even argue? How many of you have read the dharmasutras of buddhism or the upanishads of hinduism? When you are done with that, I welcome you to argue, till then for me its like banging my head against a wall because both of you are talking about what the religions 'looks like' today, which is so different from the fundamental tenets of the religions itself. I have nothing to condemn against either religion.

Again, I have never argued for discrimination based on caste system. I am arguing for the reason for which it was brought in with. Discrimination is stupid. Once you know why the idea was brought in, both of you wouldn't be arguing in a way that is best termed silly.

I haven't read every religious text myself but before saying anything about caste system or any such thing, I ask you to first read the basics. Just because some people discriminate based on caste system, don't find fault with the religion. Just because some fanatics are creating divide, don't accuse the religion for it.

Pakistan and India fighting because of religion? If that were the case, India would be at loggerheads with Bangladesh as well. For your info, there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan.


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Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2011, 12:43:58 PM »
According to Einstein - Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.
 
Fanaticism is not the heart of religion. Fantatism lies within human beings. Religion is just a tool that certain human beings interpret the way it suits their needs and nothing more. Religion is a la scapegoat at best. There are plenty of atheists out there who are bad to the core.

If I write a book, it can become a cult classic or just a regular book. How you interpret it, define it and then live by it is up to you because no one is forcing this on to you. So if you choose it the way it feeds your needs however twisted; you will become a fanatic. The problem lies within. Blaming everything to religion does not own up responsibilities as usual because we, human beings, are primarily responsible for everything that is good or bad out there. People are easily influenced and it's because only a few of those who are more intelligent than the rest. Hitler was able to influence whole Germany in his favour and it's been the study of many students since then who thrive on such power. He was able to wipe out a nation/religion with such power after all. Was the religion he followed responsible in this case? or that he was a bad person to begin with and twisted everything in his favour to feed off his own desires/lackings etc.?

In any case, we can perfectly have a discussion on God alone without the religion and I thought that was the intention.

correct on those two points. that's exactly what I've been trying to say. Fanatics are fools. They need not be part of rational discussion at all. If its Hitler we are talking about, I can always say that Mother Theresa was a Christian and she did more good than all the atheists out there.

Religion and God are different. They are not the same thing. Science seeks to explain things beyond our understanding. Is it then a religion?



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Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2011, 12:46:23 PM »
I like this thread, sorry I can't contribute more but falcon and jj and hunting have all brought up some amazing points.

jj: religion and god are packaged together but they don't need to be. that's just what happens. what falcon says about hinduism and buddhism is true, and thies goes for all religions, the essence is not about god but something deeper and far more useful that most people don't have time for. If you can't see god then it's what god stands for that would make the impact, and most people don't take time to do this. just happy to end at god and equate god and religion and boom done.

this brings me to falcon: when arguing against religion and what it has done today, or even the bad impact of the god/religion package, what does it matter what the essence of it is if no one is educated enough to enlightened enough to think about it? If some guy in the name of god blows up a place and I lose my family because of it.. what does it matter that this guy's religion was fundamentally pure and sacred? We live in a human world, everything's human perspective. In fact you being able to realize that there's more is a compliment to your capacity to view things in a different perspective, but all that perspective won't matter if there's others who don't see eye to eye and interfere with your life in less than ideal ways. There's too much in this thread for me to touch upon and obviously i see your point, especially coming from a similar background, but to answer the question of the thread, what does my belief in god or the beliefs in the purity of religions do for me if i can't achieve a  level of power/existence that puts me beyond the circumstances and consequences of every other fool out there? So I guess the question becomes, as i said before, do we NEED to, do we GAIN from believing in god? If yes, then we will choose to believe in god. If no, we will choose not to believe in god. Looking at the world today and seeing how close it is to hell, it's easy to say there's no point believing in god. But then again, all the good people you do meet - and there's more good ones than bad ones, its just the bad ones have more impact - god/religion probably had some effect on the way they are, and why they are good to begin with. And the world is an everyday ongoing 'miracle' of such 'un-explainable' things as happiness and contentment and people helping each other and friendship and love which really does not have any other solid explanation.

We all have difference of opinion, Pawan. My only point is not to accuse religion of something it is not responsible for. Again, religion and God are different concepts.  Religion as Emma says, has become a convenient scapegoat for people to satisfy their own selfish desires.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 12:47:44 PM by falcon »


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Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #86 on: November 16, 2011, 01:35:13 PM »
How can a person know what god stands for without religion? what would be the means of that knowledge?
Buddhism isn't a religion in the sense that it has a deity at it's centre,  but it has rebirth etc, a notion that is at odds with secularism, though it has metaphysical view, that can to some extent be challenged but i've made it very clear on numerous occasions, if religion of a theistic or philosophical sort isn't a danger that's ok.

I like this thread, sorry I can't contribute more but falcon and jj and hunting have all brought up some amazing points.

jj: religion and god are packaged together but they don't need to be. that's just what happens. what falcon says about hinduism and buddhism is true, and thies goes for all religions, the essence is not about god but something deeper and far more useful that most people don't have time for. If you can't see god then it's what god stands for that would make the impact, and most people don't take time to do this. just happy to end at god and equate god and religion and boom done.

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Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #87 on: November 16, 2011, 01:42:37 PM »
You don't need to read every text to abhor the caste system, if it were justifiable you would have made the case-you haven't.  But the caste system entrenches discrimination and i've made the point many times now, the fact that all aspects of every religion aren't malign, doesn't mean some are.
Pakistan exists precisely  because of religion, and it was recognised after British rule there as a danger of religious sectarianism and it happened. Of course religions is politicised, religions aren't from god they're from man, and every religion is the consequence of the political and material systems that the early devotes found themselves in.
The Bangladesh case simply doesn't hold water, the argument isn't that every religions denominations or sect fights with every other, it's just geopolitical divides tend to be exhilarated by religion.

i havnít read every religious text in existence, neither have you, but i know plenty about how it manifests itself in the real world as it really is.
You only have to look at the reality of Pakistan and India to know the role of Islam and Hinduism in shaping animosity between the peoples.
Itís already been stated that some religions are relatively benign, but that doesnít absolve the ones that arenít , does it.
I don't doubt the role of religon as a placibo, but that's all it is. 



when you guys are atheists to begin with and have never dug deep into buddhism or hinduism, how can you even argue? How many of you have read the dharmasutras of buddhism or the upanishads of hinduism? When you are done with that, I welcome you to argue, till then for me its like banging my head against a wall because both of you are talking about what the religions 'looks like' today, which is so different from the fundamental tenets of the religions itself. I have nothing to condemn against either religion.

Again, I have never argued for discrimination based on caste system. I am arguing for the reason for which it was brought in with. Discrimination is stupid. Once you know why the idea was brought in, both of you wouldn't be arguing in a way that is best termed silly.

I haven't read every religious text myself but before saying anything about caste system or any such thing, I ask you to first read the basics. Just because some people discriminate based on caste system, don't find fault with the religion. Just because some fanatics are creating divide, don't accuse the religion for it.

Pakistan and India fighting because of religion? If that were the case, India would be at loggerheads with Bangladesh as well. For your info, there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan.
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And though I'm empty I still warn the sailors on their way

Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #88 on: November 16, 2011, 01:52:34 PM »
Of course religions are about individuals satisfying there own desires, i've made that point earlier on this thread, political expediency is the stuff of religions, i could write you volumes on the subject,. But neither can you dissociate genuine religious conviction and belief in god from its' most destructive elements. 
The  justification for killing civilians on 9/11 was done in the name of religion, some will argue it cannot be justified within Islam, but that's the nature of religion, every idea is fought over and subject to interpretation.
Orthodoxy within religion is just a matter of the will of the majority, so when the majority opinion coincides with a malignant political manifestation too bad for those inf the firing line.



I like this thread, sorry I can't contribute more but falcon and jj and hunting have all brought up some amazing points.

jj: religion and god are packaged together but they don't need to be. that's just what happens. what falcon says about hinduism and buddhism is true, and thies goes for all religions, the essence is not about god but something deeper and far more useful that most people don't have time for. If you can't see god then it's what god stands for that would make the impact, and most people don't take time to do this. just happy to end at god and equate god and religion and boom done.

this brings me to falcon: when arguing against religion and what it has done today, or even the bad impact of the god/religion package, what does it matter what the essence of it is if no one is educated enough to enlightened enough to think about it? If some guy in the name of god blows up a place and I lose my family because of it.. what does it matter that this guy's religion was fundamentally pure and sacred? We live in a human world, everything's human perspective. In fact you being able to realize that there's more is a compliment to your capacity to view things in a different perspective, but all that perspective won't matter if there's others who don't see eye to eye and interfere with your life in less than ideal ways. There's too much in this thread for me to touch upon and obviously i see your point, especially coming from a similar background, but to answer the question of the thread, what does my belief in god or the beliefs in the purity of religions do for me if i can't achieve a  level of power/existence that puts me beyond the circumstances and consequences of every other fool out there? So I guess the question becomes, as i said before, do we NEED to, do we GAIN from believing in god? If yes, then we will choose to believe in god. If no, we will choose not to believe in god. Looking at the world today and seeing how close it is to hell, it's easy to say there's no point believing in god. But then again, all the good people you do meet - and there's more good ones than bad ones, its just the bad ones have more impact - god/religion probably had some effect on the way they are, and why they are good to begin with. And the world is an everyday ongoing 'miracle' of such 'un-explainable' things as happiness and contentment and people helping each other and friendship and love which really does not have any other solid explanation.

We all have difference of opinion, Pawan. My only point is not to accuse religion of something it is not responsible for. Again, religion and God are different concepts.  Religion as Emma says, has become a convenient scapegoat for people to satisfy their own selfish desires.
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Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #89 on: November 16, 2011, 01:58:14 PM »
You don't need to read every text to abhor the caste system, if it were justifiable you would have made the case-you haven't.  But the caste system entrenches discrimination and i've made the point many times now, the fact that all aspects of every religion aren't malign, doesn't mean some are.
Pakistan exists precisely  because of religion, and it was recognised after British rule there as a danger of religious sectarianism and it happened. Of course religions is politicised, religions aren't from god they're from man, and every religion is the consequence of the political and material systems that the early devotes found themselves in.
The Bangladesh case simply doesn't hold water, the argument isn't that every religions denominations or sect fights with every other, it's just geopolitical divides tend to be exhilarated by religion.

i havnít read every religious text in existence, neither have you, but i know plenty about how it manifests itself in the real world as it really is.
You only have to look at the reality of Pakistan and India to know the role of Islam and Hinduism in shaping animosity between the peoples.
Itís already been stated that some religions are relatively benign, but that doesnít absolve the ones that arenít , does it.
I don't doubt the role of religon as a placibo, but that's all it is. 



when you guys are atheists to begin with and have never dug deep into buddhism or hinduism, how can you even argue? How many of you have read the dharmasutras of buddhism or the upanishads of hinduism? When you are done with that, I welcome you to argue, till then for me its like banging my head against a wall because both of you are talking about what the religions 'looks like' today, which is so different from the fundamental tenets of the religions itself. I have nothing to condemn against either religion.

Again, I have never argued for discrimination based on caste system. I am arguing for the reason for which it was brought in with. Discrimination is stupid. Once you know why the idea was brought in, both of you wouldn't be arguing in a way that is best termed silly.

I haven't read every religious text myself but before saying anything about caste system or any such thing, I ask you to first read the basics. Just because some people discriminate based on caste system, don't find fault with the religion. Just because some fanatics are creating divide, don't accuse the religion for it.

Pakistan and India fighting because of religion? If that were the case, India would be at loggerheads with Bangladesh as well. For your info, there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan.

I will not get into the fights between religions because that is not what we are discussing here.

You want me to give you justification for the caste system? you never asked for it. I could give you an explanation but that would be deviating from the topic at hand, lets just put it in one sentence. Caste system was to help people do their job properly without interfering into other's jobs....say a policeman doing just the policing and not treating patients which is the job of a doctor. No caste is higher or lower than the other, just clear divisions for the sake of easy functioning of the society. Nothing to discriminate about.


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Offline huntingyou

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #90 on: November 16, 2011, 04:41:11 PM »
when you guys are atheists to begin with and have never dug deep into buddhism or hinduism, how can you even argue? How many of you have read the dharmasutras of buddhism or the upanishads of hinduism? When you are done with that, I welcome you to argue, till then for me its like banging my head against a wall because both of you are talking about what the religions 'looks like' today, which is so different from the fundamental tenets of the religions itself. I have nothing to condemn against either religion.

Again, I have never argued for discrimination based on caste system. I am arguing for the reason for which it was brought in with. Discrimination is stupid. Once you know why the idea was brought in, both of you wouldn't be arguing in a way that is best termed silly.

Who are you calling atheists? You need to pay a little bit more attention before shooting from the hip. I grew up christian and was very involved in it; know the bible very well and although I haven't read ALL tenets of Buddhism, I understand very well it's history and core message. No, I'm not talking about what Religion "look like" today but what Religion HAS DONE through out human history. Of course you can always lay the blame on humans, it's a human institution. You can't cherry pick the good message of a philosopher like Jesus and good deeds of Mother Theresa and ignore The Crusades, Great Inquisition, Salem Witches, DARK AGES which lasted a very LONG time.

Religion is the ultimate TOOL to control the masses, the empirical evidence is unequivocal. Just look at your own elitism claiming higher ground because an "atheist" hasn't read books that regurgitated the same old message being passed down even before EGYPTIAN times. I do believe in the spirituality of men and have no doubt that enlighten people given a Great message of wisdom throughout history; never the less the elite have hidden behind this message to enslave humanity and impose tyranny by all means.

Finally, your defense for the caste system is silly in the 21st century; of course it have a reason to exist...the elites always have reason to segregate and discriminate under the mantle of "what good for the people". The fact that an educated person like yourself even find rightness in defending such elitists and barbaric system is at the core of the message why religion is putrid; actions and consequences are mute when blind following is required of you. 

Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #91 on: November 16, 2011, 04:43:03 PM »
Of course religions are about individuals satisfying there own desires, i've made that point earlier on this thread, political expediency is the stuff of religions, i could write you volumes on the subject,. But neither can you dissociate genuine religious conviction and belief in god from its' most destructive elements. 
The  justification for killing civilians on 9/11 was done in the name of religion, some will argue it cannot be justified within Islam, but that's the nature of religion, every idea is fought over and subject to interpretation.
Orthodoxy within religion is just a matter of the will of the majority, so when the majority opinion coincides with a malignant political manifestation too bad for those inf the firing line.


Its the other way round and that's where we differ in our opinions. What you are saying is that religion is 'causing' people to be selfish whereas what I am saying is that man is predominantly selfish and would go to any extent and would even take a sensitive topic such as religion and make it the basis of their despicable acts.


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Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #92 on: November 16, 2011, 04:44:58 PM »
it's not a question of getting into fights with religions, it's a question of making the link between devotees and their claim to be serving God, and the harm that has been done historically and continues to be done. These are truths that simply cannot be avoided-where there is God, there is hate-not always, of course not, but a  hell of a lot of the time.

You don't need a caste system to make job distinctions, but the idea that ones role is decided by ones birth is absurd there is simply no rational justification for the segregation of individuals based on their being born.
If there is a good idea for a system, people tend to make it-clearly and simply, failure to do so indicates prevarication and lack of a good reason.


You don't need to read every text to abhor the caste system, if it were justifiable you would have made the case-you haven't.  But the caste system entrenches discrimination and i've made the point many times now, the fact that all aspects of every religion aren't malign, doesn't mean some are.
Pakistan exists precisely  because of religion, and it was recognised after British rule there as a danger of religious sectarianism and it happened. Of course religions is politicised, religions aren't from god they're from man, and every religion is the consequence of the political and material systems that the early devotes found themselves in.
The Bangladesh case simply doesn't hold water, the argument isn't that every religions denominations or sect fights with every other, it's just geopolitical divides tend to be exhilarated by religion.

i havnít read every religious text in existence, neither have you, but i know plenty about how it manifests itself in the real world as it really is.
You only have to look at the reality of Pakistan and India to know the role of Islam and Hinduism in shaping animosity between the peoples.
Itís already been stated that some religions are relatively benign, but that doesnít absolve the ones that arenít , does it.
I don't doubt the role of religon as a placibo, but that's all it is. 



when you guys are atheists to begin with and have never dug deep into buddhism or hinduism, how can you even argue? How many of you have read the dharmasutras of buddhism or the upanishads of hinduism? When you are done with that, I welcome you to argue, till then for me its like banging my head against a wall because both of you are talking about what the religions 'looks like' today, which is so different from the fundamental tenets of the religions itself. I have nothing to condemn against either religion.

Again, I have never argued for discrimination based on caste system. I am arguing for the reason for which it was brought in with. Discrimination is stupid. Once you know why the idea was brought in, both of you wouldn't be arguing in a way that is best termed silly.

I haven't read every religious text myself but before saying anything about caste system or any such thing, I ask you to first read the basics. Just because some people discriminate based on caste system, don't find fault with the religion. Just because some fanatics are creating divide, don't accuse the religion for it.

Pakistan and India fighting because of religion? If that were the case, India would be at loggerheads with Bangladesh as well. For your info, there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan.

I will not get into the fights between religions because that is not what we are discussing here.

You want me to give you justification for the caste system? you never asked for it. I could give you an explanation but that would be deviating from the topic at hand, lets just put it in one sentence. Caste system was to help people do their job properly without interfering into other's jobs....say a policeman doing just the policing and not treating patients which is the job of a doctor. No caste is higher or lower than the other, just clear divisions for the sake of easy functioning of the society. Nothing to discriminate about.
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Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #93 on: November 16, 2011, 04:47:04 PM »
when you guys are atheists to begin with and have never dug deep into buddhism or hinduism, how can you even argue? How many of you have read the dharmasutras of buddhism or the upanishads of hinduism? When you are done with that, I welcome you to argue, till then for me its like banging my head against a wall because both of you are talking about what the religions 'looks like' today, which is so different from the fundamental tenets of the religions itself. I have nothing to condemn against either religion.

Again, I have never argued for discrimination based on caste system. I am arguing for the reason for which it was brought in with. Discrimination is stupid. Once you know why the idea was brought in, both of you wouldn't be arguing in a way that is best termed silly.

Who are you calling atheists? You need to pay a little bit more attention before shooting from the hip. I grew up christian and was very involved in it; know the bible very well and although I haven't read ALL tenets of Buddhism, I understand very well it's history and core message. No, I'm not talking about what Religion "look like" today but what Religion HAS DONE through out human history. Of course you can always lay the blame on humans, it's a human institution. You can't cherry pick the good message of a philosopher like Jesus and good deeds of Mother Theresa and ignore The Crusades, Great Inquisition, Salem Witches, DARK AGES which lasted a very LONG time.

Religion is the ultimate TOOL to control the masses, the empirical evidence is unequivocal. Just look at your own elitism claiming higher ground because an "atheist" hasn't read books that regurgitated the same old message being passed down even before EGYPTIAN times. I do believe in the spirituality of men and have no doubt that enlighten people given a Great message of wisdom throughout history; never the less the elite have hidden behind this message to enslave humanity and impose tyranny by all means.

Finally, your defense for the caste system is silly in the 21st century; of course it have a reason to exist...the elites always have reason to segregate and discriminate under the mantle of "what good for the people". The fact that an educated person like yourself even find rightness in defending such elitists and barbaric system is at the core of the message why religion is putrid; actions and consequences are mute when blind following is required of you.

Now, you are just saying here what I have been telling all this while  :)

And for your last part, atrocities done on the basis of anything is bad and I stand by it. Religion never asked people to throw bombs, look down upon people because of their birth or hate people for their sexual orientations. And no, I am not following anything blindly, considering that I am not religious myself. If anything, I am spiritual and I don't follow any particular religious practice.


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Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #94 on: November 16, 2011, 04:49:48 PM »
it's not a question of getting into fights with religions, it's a question of making the link between devotees and their claim to be serving God, and the harm that has been done historically and continues to be done. These are truths that simply cannot be avoided-where there is God, there is hate-not always, of course not, but a  hell of a lot of the time.

You don't need a caste system to make job distinctions, but the idea that ones role is decided by ones birth is absurd there is simply no rational justification for the segregation of individuals based on their being born.
If there is a good idea for a system, people tend to make it-clearly and simply, failure to do so indicates prevarication and lack of a good reason.


Didn't I say that Hinduism and Buddhism in their core have no concept of God? Your whole statement then becomes something without a basis.

And when did I say that birth decides which job you get into? Isn't that your own figment of imagination?


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Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2011, 04:50:24 PM »
Well since you are saying man is inherently selfish and man is the author of Hinduism, his selfish traits are revealed within the religion-it's your logic not mine.

Man has the capacity for egoism and vanity, but certain environments bring out the worst in us, power corrupts, and religions give man the power with which to be corrupted by absolutely.  They give power over other individuals, power to enchain man within a self induced narcissistic doctrine which has nothing to do with the divine, but everything to do with human nature and power.

Of course religions are about individuals satisfying there own desires, i've made that point earlier on this thread, political expediency is the stuff of religions, i could write you volumes on the subject,. But neither can you dissociate genuine religious conviction and belief in god from its' most destructive elements. 
The  justification for killing civilians on 9/11 was done in the name of religion, some will argue it cannot be justified within Islam, but that's the nature of religion, every idea is fought over and subject to interpretation.
Orthodoxy within religion is just a matter of the will of the majority, so when the majority opinion coincides with a malignant political manifestation too bad for those inf the firing line.


Its the other way round and that's where we differ in our opinions. What you are saying is that religion is 'causing' people to be selfish whereas what I am saying is that man is predominantly selfish and would go to any extent and would even take a sensitive topic such as religion and make it the basis of their despicable acts.
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Offline jesse james

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2011, 04:53:38 PM »
If they have no concept of god, but are man made, they don't even need to be given the status of religion but be subject to the same rational as everyday philosophy, for which they would probably fair ok, the population of india is poor and uneducated and given rational faculties would probably reject their tenets, it's only by position of birth and poverty that they believe anyway.

it's not a question of getting into fights with religions, it's a question of making the link between devotees and their claim to be serving God, and the harm that has been done historically and continues to be done. These are truths that simply cannot be avoided-where there is God, there is hate-not always, of course not, but a  hell of a lot of the time.

You don't need a caste system to make job distinctions, but the idea that ones role is decided by ones birth is absurd there is simply no rational justification for the segregation of individuals based on their being born.
If there is a good idea for a system, people tend to make it-clearly and simply, failure to do so indicates prevarication and lack of a good reason.


Didn't I say that Hinduism and Buddhism in their core have no concept of God? Your whole statement then becomes something without a basis.

And when did I say that birth decides which job you get into? Isn't that your own figment of imagination?
I am a lighthouse worn by the weather and the waves
And though I'm empty I still warn the sailors on their way

Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2011, 04:55:06 PM »
Well since you are saying man is inherently selfish and man is the author of Hinduism, his selfish traits are revealed within the religion-it's your logic not mine.

Man has the capacity for egoism and vanity, but certain environments bring out the worst in us, power corrupts, and religions give man the power with which to be corrupted by absolutely.  They give power over other individuals, power to enchain man within a self induced narcissistic doctrine which has nothing to do with the divine, but everything to do with human nature and power.

Of course religions are about individuals satisfying there own desires, i've made that point earlier on this thread, political expediency is the stuff of religions, i could write you volumes on the subject,. But neither can you dissociate genuine religious conviction and belief in god from its' most destructive elements. 
The  justification for killing civilians on 9/11 was done in the name of religion, some will argue it cannot be justified within Islam, but that's the nature of religion, every idea is fought over and subject to interpretation.
Orthodoxy within religion is just a matter of the will of the majority, so when the majority opinion coincides with a malignant political manifestation too bad for those inf the firing line.


Its the other way round and that's where we differ in our opinions. What you are saying is that religion is 'causing' people to be selfish whereas what I am saying is that man is predominantly selfish and would go to any extent and would even take a sensitive topic such as religion and make it the basis of their despicable acts.

If hinduism or buddhism are ordered religions then I accept your statement, when both are not ordered religions, I cannot accept what you say. Hinduism atleast is not a religion created by one man and Buddhism only reiterates the core concept of what hinduism says and since it is these two 'religions' that I know, I can only comment on them and here I am not even advocating for or against any religion. I am only bringing an alternate topic for argument because religion is being attacked all the time and as I said, while I am not religious, I don't see the reason why religion should come under attack all the time.


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Offline falcon

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #98 on: November 16, 2011, 04:57:46 PM »
If they have no concept of god, but are man made, they don't even need to be given the status of religion but be subject to the same rational as everyday philosophy, for which they would probably fair ok, the population of india is poor and uneducated and given rational faculties would probably reject their tenets, it's only by position of birth and poverty that they believe anyway.

it's not a question of getting into fights with religions, it's a question of making the link between devotees and their claim to be serving God, and the harm that has been done historically and continues to be done. These are truths that simply cannot be avoided-where there is God, there is hate-not always, of course not, but a  hell of a lot of the time.

You don't need a caste system to make job distinctions, but the idea that ones role is decided by ones birth is absurd there is simply no rational justification for the segregation of individuals based on their being born.
If there is a good idea for a system, people tend to make it-clearly and simply, failure to do so indicates prevarication and lack of a good reason.


Didn't I say that Hinduism and Buddhism in their core have no concept of God? Your whole statement then becomes something without a basis.

And when did I say that birth decides which job you get into? Isn't that your own figment of imagination?

My my, what do you think about Indian population?? Are all these ideas coming from what bbc portrays about India?


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Offline huntingyou

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Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #99 on: November 16, 2011, 05:01:15 PM »
when you guys are atheists to begin with and have never dug deep into buddhism or hinduism, how can you even argue? How many of you have read the dharmasutras of buddhism or the upanishads of hinduism? When you are done with that, I welcome you to argue, till then for me its like banging my head against a wall because both of you are talking about what the religions 'looks like' today, which is so different from the fundamental tenets of the religions itself. I have nothing to condemn against either religion.

Again, I have never argued for discrimination based on caste system. I am arguing for the reason for which it was brought in with. Discrimination is stupid. Once you know why the idea was brought in, both of you wouldn't be arguing in a way that is best termed silly.

Who are you calling atheists? You need to pay a little bit more attention before shooting from the hip. I grew up christian and was very involved in it; know the bible very well and although I haven't read ALL tenets of Buddhism, I understand very well it's history and core message. No, I'm not talking about what Religion "look like" today but what Religion HAS DONE through out human history. Of course you can always lay the blame on humans, it's a human institution. You can't cherry pick the good message of a philosopher like Jesus and good deeds of Mother Theresa and ignore The Crusades, Great Inquisition, Salem Witches, DARK AGES which lasted a very LONG time.

Religion is the ultimate TOOL to control the masses, the empirical evidence is unequivocal. Just look at your own elitism claiming higher ground because an "atheist" hasn't read books that regurgitated the same old message being passed down even before EGYPTIAN times. I do believe in the spirituality of men and have no doubt that enlighten people given a Great message of wisdom throughout history; never the less the elite have hidden behind this message to enslave humanity and impose tyranny by all means.

Finally, your defense for the caste system is silly in the 21st century; of course it have a reason to exist...the elites always have reason to segregate and discriminate under the mantle of "what good for the people". The fact that an educated person like yourself even find rightness in defending such elitists and barbaric system is at the core of the message why religion is putrid; actions and consequences are mute when blind following is required of you.

Now, you are just saying here what I have been telling all this while  :)

And for your last part, atrocities done on the basis of anything is bad and I stand by it. Religion never asked people to throw bombs, look down upon people because of their birth or hate people for their sexual orientations. And no, I am not following anything blindly, considering that I am not religious myself. If anything, I am spiritual and I don't follow any particular religious practice.

But Religion has and still ask people today to commit crimes against humanity; you just can not separate Religion's cause and effects...it goes against the basic tenets of logic. An example, the US has a big powerful voting group called "The Evangelicals"....these people hate homosexuals and are extremely active in the political sense against the equality of homosexuals in society. That's just one example here in America.

Liberalism not only tried to free man from monarchy rule but Religion control as well. Thanks to secular egalitarianism the power of religion to destroy and enslave has been tamed greatly; the minute democratic elected institution fall to the fanatical right.....crimes against humanity will follow.

Yes, Ayatollahs in Saudi Arabia and Madrases in Pakistan ask the YOUNG kids to throw bombs...that's Religion asking to throw bombs; you can't have the cake and eat it too.