Author Topic: do you believe in God?  (Read 12315 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jesse james

  • Tennis Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
  • Gender: Male
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #100 on: November 16, 2011, 05:03:00 PM »
I'm not attacking all religions all the time, I've made that very clear.
what I've said is that religion is a force for evil-that's an overview. I'm well aware of the virtues of some aspects of religion, though they are somewhat tempered by mitigating frailties.
For example i have no doubt that within Amish communities there is a degree for social solidarity, acceptance of ones social state, and happiness (i think suicide rates are astronomically low by western standards). But even if i accept that, it doesn't mean what they preach is true, are a metaphysical reality.

But If both Hinduism and Buddhism (which doesn't have a god, but metaphysical components like reincarnation) are true, why should i accept the commands or injunctions of those religions when they aren't given by anyone?
I am a lighthouse worn by the weather and the waves
And though I'm empty I still warn the sailors on their way

Offline falcon

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Female
  • cooooooooooooooool
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #101 on: November 16, 2011, 05:06:21 PM »
I'm not attacking all religions all the time, I've made that very clear.
what I've said is that religion is a force for evil-that's an overview. I'm well aware of the virtues of some aspects of religion, though they are somewhat tempered by mitigating frailties.
For example i have no doubt that within Amish communities there is a degree for social solidarity, acceptance of ones social state, and happiness (i think suicide rates are astronomically low by western standards). But even if i accept that, it doesn't mean what they preach is true, are a metaphysical reality.

But If both Hinduism and Buddhism (which doesn't have a god, but metaphysical components like reincarnation) are true, why should i accept the commands or injunctions of those religions when they aren't given by anyone?

You don't have to, just like I don't.


The drag of destiny destroys the reins of reason

Offline huntingyou

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 2601
  • Gender: Male
  • #18
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #102 on: November 16, 2011, 05:06:34 PM »
If they have no concept of god, but are man made, they don't even need to be given the status of religion but be subject to the same rational as everyday philosophy, for which they would probably fair ok, the population of india is poor and uneducated and given rational faculties would probably reject their tenets, it's only by position of birth and poverty that they believe anyway.

it's not a question of getting into fights with religions, it's a question of making the link between devotees and their claim to be serving God, and the harm that has been done historically and continues to be done. These are truths that simply cannot be avoided-where there is God, there is hate-not always, of course not, but a  hell of a lot of the time.

You don't need a caste system to make job distinctions, but the idea that ones role is decided by ones birth is absurd there is simply no rational justification for the segregation of individuals based on their being born.
If there is a good idea for a system, people tend to make it-clearly and simply, failure to do so indicates prevarication and lack of a good reason.


Didn't I say that Hinduism and Buddhism in their core have no concept of God? Your whole statement then becomes something without a basis.

And when did I say that birth decides which job you get into? Isn't that your own figment of imagination?

My my, what do you think about Indian population?? Are all these ideas coming from what bbc portrays about India?

are you going to deny poverty in India and the exploitation suffered by the lower class (majority) at the hands of multinationals and their own government policies or "urbanization"?  Why do think their is no revolution on the big scale by the poor majority?

Somebody once said "Religion is the opium of the masses"    In this case the establish Hinduism plays that role very well!

Offline jesse james

  • Tennis Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
  • Gender: Male
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #103 on: November 16, 2011, 05:09:15 PM »
then the morality of those 'religions' crumbles, if no divine entity is making the rules on how we should live, we may as well make our own anyway, and not have a set of class cementing edicts.
So they have no divine element, and no moral element............you're cough between the unbelievable and the not worth believing.

I'm not attacking all religions all the time, I've made that very clear.
what I've said is that religion is a force for evil-that's an overview. I'm well aware of the virtues of some aspects of religion, though they are somewhat tempered by mitigating frailties.
For example i have no doubt that within Amish communities there is a degree for social solidarity, acceptance of ones social state, and happiness (i think suicide rates are astronomically low by western standards). But even if i accept that, it doesn't mean what they preach is true, are a metaphysical reality.

But If both Hinduism and Buddhism (which doesn't have a god, but metaphysical components like reincarnation) are true, why should i accept the commands or injunctions of those religions when they aren't given by anyone?

You don't have to, just like I don't.
I am a lighthouse worn by the weather and the waves
And though I'm empty I still warn the sailors on their way

Offline jesse james

  • Tennis Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
  • Gender: Male
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #104 on: November 16, 2011, 05:32:00 PM »
Excellent post hunting.

actually it was Marx's quote in his critique of Hagels philosophy of right.
Here it is in full........
''Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.''

It's pretty damn good, and often misconstrued, i think because people don't know the full context. it's often represented as meaning that people choose religion as a kind of drug, something to excite or distract them from reality.
Well in a way that's true, but what Marx is really saying, and it's probably obvious anyway, is that religion is an expression of the underlying oppression, in a heartless world, and by changing our materiel and social conditions the need for the opiate is no longer required.


If they have no concept of god, but are man made, they don't even need to be given the status of religion but be subject to the same rational as everyday philosophy, for which they would probably fair ok, the population of india is poor and uneducated and given rational faculties would probably reject their tenets, it's only by position of birth and poverty that they believe anyway.

it's not a question of getting into fights with religions, it's a question of making the link between devotees and their claim to be serving God, and the harm that has been done historically and continues to be done. These are truths that simply cannot be avoided-where there is God, there is hate-not always, of course not, but a  hell of a lot of the time.

You don't need a caste system to make job distinctions, but the idea that ones role is decided by ones birth is absurd there is simply no rational justification for the segregation of individuals based on their being born.
If there is a good idea for a system, people tend to make it-clearly and simply, failure to do so indicates prevarication and lack of a good reason.


Didn't I say that Hinduism and Buddhism in their core have no concept of God? Your whole statement then becomes something without a basis.

And when did I say that birth decides which job you get into? Isn't that your own figment of imagination?

My my, what do you think about Indian population?? Are all these ideas coming from what bbc portrays about India?

are you going to deny poverty in India and the exploitation suffered by the lower class (majority) at the hands of multinationals and their own government policies or "urbanization"?  Why do think their is no revolution on the big scale by the poor majority?

Somebody once said "Religion is the opium of the masses"    In this case the establish Hinduism plays that role very well!
I am a lighthouse worn by the weather and the waves
And though I'm empty I still warn the sailors on their way

Offline falcon

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Female
  • cooooooooooooooool
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #105 on: November 16, 2011, 05:58:57 PM »
If they have no concept of god, but are man made, they don't even need to be given the status of religion but be subject to the same rational as everyday philosophy, for which they would probably fair ok, the population of india is poor and uneducated and given rational faculties would probably reject their tenets, it's only by position of birth and poverty that they believe anyway.

it's not a question of getting into fights with religions, it's a question of making the link between devotees and their claim to be serving God, and the harm that has been done historically and continues to be done. These are truths that simply cannot be avoided-where there is God, there is hate-not always, of course not, but a  hell of a lot of the time.

You don't need a caste system to make job distinctions, but the idea that ones role is decided by ones birth is absurd there is simply no rational justification for the segregation of individuals based on their being born.
If there is a good idea for a system, people tend to make it-clearly and simply, failure to do so indicates prevarication and lack of a good reason.


Didn't I say that Hinduism and Buddhism in their core have no concept of God? Your whole statement then becomes something without a basis.

And when did I say that birth decides which job you get into? Isn't that your own figment of imagination?

My my, what do you think about Indian population?? Are all these ideas coming from what bbc portrays about India?

are you going to deny poverty in India and the exploitation suffered by the lower class (majority) at the hands of multinationals and their own government policies or "urbanization"?  Why do think their is no revolution on the big scale by the poor majority?

Somebody once said "Religion is the opium of the masses"    In this case the establish Hinduism plays that role very well!

No I am not denying poverty nor extortion because its not specific to one country, it happens all over the world. And well if you think there is no revolt on any side in India, sorry to burst your bubble but we have something going on everytime. Naxalism is a huge problem in India and is only rising because of the inconsistencies in society...and no religion does not play a role there. I think I know more about my country than you do?


The drag of destiny destroys the reins of reason

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #106 on: November 16, 2011, 06:02:07 PM »
Do you believe in God? Just a yes or no answer would be sufficient. Thanks.
And I am not asking this question to falcon. I am fully aware of her stand on this matter.
.
You are everything I am not.

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #107 on: November 16, 2011, 06:20:42 PM »
Yes, Ayatollahs in Saudi Arabia and Madrases in Pakistan ask the YOUNG kids to throw bombs...that's Religion asking to throw bombs; you can't have the cake and eat it too.   
 
hunting, ^^ that's your quote.
 
Could you please tell me who or what was behind that atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima near the end of WWII and destroyed the city almost completely?
 
Also, do you think it was Hitler's religion that led him to nearly end the Jewish community? Over 60 million people were killed in that war. And when you reply, please do not mix Nazi with Religion.
 
And while you are at it, please free to explain WWI and the reasons why the casualties of that war saw more than 35 million.
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 07:51:27 PM by Emma »
You are everything I am not.

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #108 on: November 16, 2011, 07:28:08 PM »
Some interesting tidbits for you:

In their Encyclopedia of Warauthors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod attempt a comprehensive listing of wars in history. They document 1763 wars overall, of which 123 (7%) have been classified to involve a religious conflict.
 
Not all violence is by nature "religious". Secularity, including Atheism, and violence are also compatible. Violence committed by secular governments and people have been documented including some instances of violence or persecutions focused on religious believers and those who believe in the supernatural.
 
Both World Wars, many civil wars (American, El Salvador, Russia, Sri Lanka, China etc.), revolutionary wars (American, French, Russian, etc.), and common conflicts such as gang and drug wars or even the War on Terrorism, have all been secular.
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, that war between Pakistan and Bangladesh was a war of independence even though it started out as a civil war, which quickly turned out to be a war of liberation. They are both Muslim countries and religion was never the cause of that war. The war lasted only 9 months but it saw over 3 million causalities.
 
Pretty, isnít it? You can see what human beings are capable of - even without the name of religion.
 
Even if there was no religion, no war, the world would have still seen at least 90% of total wars and it would have still killed millions and millions of people Ö mostly innocent people. Religion is never the root of evil Ė itís us.
 
But donít forget to answer that question before you reply to anything else Ė do you believe in God? Just yes or no.
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 07:50:49 PM by Emma »
You are everything I am not.

Offline falcon

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Female
  • cooooooooooooooool
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #109 on: November 16, 2011, 08:04:07 PM »
Emma  :thumbs-up:


The drag of destiny destroys the reins of reason

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #110 on: November 16, 2011, 08:26:51 PM »
Btw, hunting, since you are blaming religion and their caste system to their eventual poverty, please pray tell what is the reason behind the poverty of the other countries including your very own? How about that Somalia, eh? how come millions and millions of children are dying of hunger? Is it because....gasp! Islam? but how so? The Middle Eastern countries seem to be some of the riches countries in the world. God must not be playing his dice right or at least he is drunk to be so lopsided.
 
Poverty is not the byproduct of religion. There are many causes involved like natural disasters, wars etc. to name a few. Religion can only be one reason and not even in a major way.
 
 
 
You are everything I am not.

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #111 on: November 16, 2011, 08:47:05 PM »
And the idea of God would have existed even without religion. It would have come up. We are not all intellectual fools, you see. Some of us would have looked around, studied a few things, questioned a lot and discovered a few. Simple logic can sometimes lead to a big discovery Iíll have you know. Donít take your misguided anger out on an innocent person like falcon in the name of religion. Stick to the subject in hand. You havenít even answered the very question youíve asked let alone validate it Ė yes or no. Take a moment and think if itís possible to separate the two Ė God and religion. God itself tells you that it was always here or that it has always existed. Religion came much later after human beings were born and came into this planet. You see, we weren't born with baggy jeans and race cars. We were naked and helpless and clueless. We needed guidance. Heaven and Hell were used in the metaphorical terms. Things are/were far more complex but try telling those naÔve newly born human beings. Do you know how many years it took us to get only here?
Anyway, which came first? Egg or chicken? Egg of course.
 
You are everything I am not.

Offline huntingyou

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 2601
  • Gender: Male
  • #18
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #112 on: November 16, 2011, 10:26:17 PM »
No I am not denying poverty nor extortion because its not specific to one country, it happens all over the world. And well if you think there is no revolt on any side in India, sorry to burst your bubble but we have something going on everytime. Naxalism is a huge problem in India and is only rising because of the inconsistencies in society...and no religion does not play a role there. I think I know more about my country than you do?

Poverty rate and the poor quality of living on western societies is tiny in comparison to India for example. Now, the exploitation that the western world and their corporations perpetrate all over third world countries is perhaps the biggest cause for this reality. I have mentioned the term elites many times, and is not only in relation to religious establishment but also a small fraction of powerful people who control capital and influence governments all around the world. The IMF for example use a white flag of "good will" while it rapes the country it's supposes to be helping by fraudulent loans, contracts, assassinations and political extortions.

So, you would be asking; "then where religion plays it's part in this mess?"  Read JJ direct quotation of Marx and the role of religion among the exploited. The established Hinduism in India channels the cry for justice and equality among the poor majority that it's being exploited into a mythical realm; a realm the calms the soul into acceptance of their reality which in term benefits the very elites who continue to exploits them.

This is just an example for a particular country and it's people; Religion is the tool to facilitate the statues quo. If you take a look at the materialistic societies in the west; then the media and entertainment takes that role very well; especially in the US. People are being brainwash since they are born into a comsuption driven life, they become cattle for the system that oppress them without realization. Do I blame religion for all the ills in this world? of course not, but to deny religion influence in the enslavement of people's mind and potential for grow is to try to cover the heavens with one hand. 

Offline huntingyou

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 2601
  • Gender: Male
  • #18
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #113 on: November 16, 2011, 10:52:11 PM »
Yes, Ayatollahs in Saudi Arabia and Madrases in Pakistan ask the YOUNG kids to throw bombs...that's Religion asking to throw bombs; you can't have the cake and eat it too.   
 
hunting, ^^ that's your quote.
 
Could you please tell me who or what was behind that atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima near the end of WWII and destroyed the city almost completely?
 
Also, do you think it was Hitler's religion that led him to nearly end the Jewish community? Over 60 million people were killed in that war. And when you reply, please do not mix Nazi with Religion.
 
And while you are at it, please free to explain WWI and the reasons why the casualties of that war saw more than 35 million.

what do you want to know about WW1? There is the written history, then there is omitted one. I believe Monarchy was included on that one, political assassination, economical expansion and the whole 9 yards. I do know to this day that Liberal secular Democracies hasn't engage in wars among themselves....wonder why?

WWII? Germany was oppressed by the international community after WWI and from within by the wealthy elites who basically ran their banking system......who were those people? Yes the Jews, and how do you identify Jews? Race? Nope.....their Religion (btw look at How Israel was established and what's being going on in that part of the world for the last 60 years). Was Hitler a proponent of liberal egalitarian government or a fascist state of worship? Hitler basically created a religion, a religion of nationalism that channeled the anger of the Gemran people into a war machine. Under this fanaticism, Hitler used the Jews as scapegoats and gave the opportunity to the German people for revenge.

Talking about Hitler or even Stalin doesn't removed the culpability of religion, and the numbers of death in both world wars PALE in comparison to those kill under the banner of Christianity, Islam and Judaism. As a matter of fact, the count of deaths is not even the big problem but the oppression of millions and millions of people for the last 3 thousands years under the monotheistic religion. Now, you can add ALL the other religions outside of the Abraham's faiths and the count of atrocities and death goes beyond comprehension.

The atomic bomb was used by the USA, the nation that print their dollars with the motto "In God We Trust"........the safe heaven for fanatical evangelicals who HATE everybody who is not white and worship their Lord Jesus.

Offline falcon

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Female
  • cooooooooooooooool
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #114 on: November 16, 2011, 11:06:59 PM »
No I am not denying poverty nor extortion because its not specific to one country, it happens all over the world. And well if you think there is no revolt on any side in India, sorry to burst your bubble but we have something going on everytime. Naxalism is a huge problem in India and is only rising because of the inconsistencies in society...and no religion does not play a role there. I think I know more about my country than you do?

Poverty rate and the poor quality of living on western societies is tiny in comparison to India for example. Now, the exploitation that the western world and their corporations perpetrate all over third world countries is perhaps the biggest cause for this reality. I have mentioned the term elites many times, and is not only in relation to religious establishment but also a small fraction of powerful people who control capital and influence governments all around the world. The IMF for example use a white flag of "good will" while it rapes the country it's supposes to be helping by fraudulent loans, contracts, assassinations and political extortions.

So, you would be asking; "then where religion plays it's part in this mess?"  Read JJ direct quotation of Marx and the role of religion among the exploited. The established Hinduism in India channels the cry for justice and equality among the poor majority that it's being exploited into a mythical realm; a realm the calms the soul into acceptance of their reality which in term benefits the very elites who continue to exploits them.

This is just an example for a particular country and it's people; Religion is the tool to facilitate the statues quo. If you take a look at the materialistic societies in the west; then the media and entertainment takes that role very well; especially in the US. People are being brainwash since they are born into a comsuption driven life, they become cattle for the system that oppress them without realization. Do I blame religion for all the ills in this world? of course not, but to deny religion influence in the enslavement of people's mind and potential for grow is to try to cover the heavens with one hand.

But you didn't even answer my question. you said the poor 'accept' things because of religion, whereas what we are seeing is a revolution of sorts by the poor. Why? If what you said is true, it should not be that way oh and btw, India is a secular country.


The drag of destiny destroys the reins of reason

Offline huntingyou

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 2601
  • Gender: Male
  • #18
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #115 on: November 16, 2011, 11:09:39 PM »
Btw, hunting, since you are blaming religion and their caste system to their eventual poverty, please pray tell what is the reason behind the poverty of the other countries including your very own? How about that Somalia, eh? how come millions and millions of children are dying of hunger? Is it because....gasp! Islam? but how so? The Middle Eastern countries seem to be some of the riches countries in the world. God must not be playing his dice right or at least he is drunk to be so lopsided.
 
Poverty is not the byproduct of religion. There are many causes involved like natural disasters, wars etc. to name a few. Religion can only be one reason and not even in a major way.

Monarchies used religion for their goals for thousand of years; so too the governments of today but to a lesser degree thanks to the enlightenment of man into not believing in fairy tales. So of course, another tool has to be used.

The poor in US is a rich men in India.......false or true?

Somalia? hmm, I do know the IMF did their bidding back in the 80s and destroyed the Somalies ability to produce their own food among many other things but that's another topic, right? The role of Islam in Africa has been as destructive as it has been in the Arab world; even worse I may say. The women suffers terribly under male oppression which is justified by so called Islamic teachings. I know as a women, you don't want no part of being a Saudi Arabia citizen for example; correct? Canada and it's liberal secular democracy seems more fair; don't you agree my dear friend?

Again, religion is not the initial cause of poverty and tyranny in some cases......but it's the tool used by the very same elites who benefits of the status quo.

and I don't think the divinity cares either way what happens here in the mortal world; we are just a second in time and a non factor in the fabrics of eternity.

btw How are you? :)~

Offline falcon

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Female
  • cooooooooooooooool
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #116 on: November 16, 2011, 11:10:41 PM »
Yes, Ayatollahs in Saudi Arabia and Madrases in Pakistan ask the YOUNG kids to throw bombs...that's Religion asking to throw bombs; you can't have the cake and eat it too.   
 
hunting, ^^ that's your quote.
 
Could you please tell me who or what was behind that atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima near the end of WWII and destroyed the city almost completely?
 
Also, do you think it was Hitler's religion that led him to nearly end the Jewish community? Over 60 million people were killed in that war. And when you reply, please do not mix Nazi with Religion.
 
And while you are at it, please free to explain WWI and the reasons why the casualties of that war saw more than 35 million.

The atomic bomb was used by the USA, the nation that print their dollars with the motto "In God We Trust"........the safe heaven for fanatical evangelicals who HATE everybody who is not white and worship their Lord Jesus.

oh c'mon, I am damn sure Rossevelt wasn't thinking of Buddhism or Shintoism in Japan when he signed the affidavit that launched the attack on Hiroshima. Oh and definitely not about Jesus and Buddha at loggerheads.


The drag of destiny destroys the reins of reason

Offline huntingyou

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 2601
  • Gender: Male
  • #18
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #117 on: November 16, 2011, 11:18:44 PM »
No I am not denying poverty nor extortion because its not specific to one country, it happens all over the world. And well if you think there is no revolt on any side in India, sorry to burst your bubble but we have something going on everytime. Naxalism is a huge problem in India and is only rising because of the inconsistencies in society...and no religion does not play a role there. I think I know more about my country than you do?

Poverty rate and the poor quality of living on western societies is tiny in comparison to India for example. Now, the exploitation that the western world and their corporations perpetrate all over third world countries is perhaps the biggest cause for this reality. I have mentioned the term elites many times, and is not only in relation to religious establishment but also a small fraction of powerful people who control capital and influence governments all around the world. The IMF for example use a white flag of "good will" while it rapes the country it's supposes to be helping by fraudulent loans, contracts, assassinations and political extortions.

So, you would be asking; "then where religion plays it's part in this mess?"  Read JJ direct quotation of Marx and the role of religion among the exploited. The established Hinduism in India channels the cry for justice and equality among the poor majority that it's being exploited into a mythical realm; a realm the calms the soul into acceptance of their reality which in term benefits the very elites who continue to exploits them.

This is just an example for a particular country and it's people; Religion is the tool to facilitate the statues quo. If you take a look at the materialistic societies in the west; then the media and entertainment takes that role very well; especially in the US. People are being brainwash since they are born into a comsuption driven life, they become cattle for the system that oppress them without realization. Do I blame religion for all the ills in this world? of course not, but to deny religion influence in the enslavement of people's mind and potential for grow is to try to cover the heavens with one hand.

But you didn't even answer my question. you said the poor 'accept' things because of religion, whereas what we are seeing is a revolution of sorts by the poor. Why? If what you said is true, it should not be that way oh and btw, India is a secular country.

a little too late for the revolution? what's the scale of revolution? At some point there is so much a human being can take regardless of who is controlling him; the Arab Spring comes to mind.

Germany is a secular state. India is not a Theocracy BUT their people seem to believe in a lot of myths; especially those at the bottom of society. Thanks the progressives in your country for fighting the good fight and educating the people.

and yes the poor and weak accepted more than a millennium of oppression by Christianity and monarchy because Heavens was waiting for them after death......Resistance meant eternal damnation but I'm sure you knew that already. Look at Islam and it's theocracies....kind of the same story reapeating itself but just 300 hundred years later.

Offline huntingyou

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 2601
  • Gender: Male
  • #18
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #118 on: November 16, 2011, 11:55:06 PM »
"The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning."
 
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
 
"If there are atheists, who is to be blamed if not the mercenary tyrants of souls who, in revolting us against their swindles, compel some feeble spirits to deny the God whom these monsters dishonour"

Voltaire was a smart dude!

"Which is it: is man one of God's blunders, or is God one of man's blunders?"

Nietzsche had an axe to grind

"Mankind has been punished long and heavily for having created its gods; nothing but pain and persecution have been man's lot since gods began. There is but one way out of this blunder: Man must break his fetters which have chained him to the gates of heaven and hell, so that he can begin to fashion out of his reawakened and illumined consciousness a new world upon earth."

Emma Goldman


« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 11:58:14 PM by huntingyou »

Offline jesse james

  • Tennis Addict
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
  • Gender: Male
Re: do you believe in God?
« Reply #119 on: November 17, 2011, 07:04:37 AM »
This is simply a straw man argument, no one is claiming all wars or all violence are committed in the name of religion, In fact in a technical sense very few wars have been acted out in the name of religion.
 iíve already given examples of benign religious communities and militant secular ones, though whether we countries like the US as technically secular is debatable. .
 The claim is rather that as a fact religion is often oppressive and anti egalitarian.
Itís the coercive and manipulative nature of religion that exists within societies that is core of the problem, it acts as a covert controlling agent able to manipulate the feelings of citizens-again not in all cases but in many.
Take Iran, where women, homosexuals, apostates etc are oppressed, this is a fact. But Iran hasnít invaded another country in about 200 years, and the Iran Iraq war was supported by the West, and was for the main part secular-the West happy to supply arms to the Sadham regime.
The second world war is a very good example of this. The Vatican which has been criticised for not speaking out against Nazi atrocities, was active in supporting Fascism in Italy, Spain and most brutally in Yugoslavia.
In Italy for example, the Vatican saw the emerging fascism as a bulwark against both secularism and communism-it used itís power subtly to manipulate the situation. While it didnít actively speak out in support of the regime,
it condemned socialist activity, and encouraged clerics to condemn members of Ďsubversiveí ie anti fascist groups, having your immortal soul in danger of eternal damnation is certainly and inducement to cooperate with totalitarianism.
The catholic churches in Spain, Germany (although catholicism was smaller in that country) and Serbia engineered the situation where fascism was accepted.
Indeed during World war II, there was widespread persecution of Serbs, with the Croatian Ustase-many catholic priests,  murdering thousands of Serbs, and thousands were forced to convert to Catholicism. The victims were predominantly Serbs, but also included Jews.
Jews were obviously both an ethnic, but more significantly religious group-Christian hostility to Jews is a historic reality-though of course World war II, was never fought on a religious basis, but it was part of the German characture at the time.
To suggest World war to was a secular war is only partially true, behind the scenes religion was pulling strings and helping to create myths.

Certainly iím opposed to totalitarianism and oppression in all itís forms from Stalinism to fascism, and secular hegemony-iíve already added points regarding US hegemony on this site and didnít feel the need to balance that with a comment with one on religious hegemony, although it undoubtedly exists. But religion is de facto totalitarianism without the need for standing armies and weapons. Within Christianity you can be punished for all eternity for thought crimes-you are judged constantly by a supernatural dictator, and if you get it wrong, into the flames you go....now thatís totalitarianism. 




Yes, Ayatollahs in Saudi Arabia and Madrases in Pakistan ask the YOUNG kids to throw bombs...that's Religion asking to throw bombs; you can't have the cake and eat it too.   
 
hunting, ^^ that's your quote.
 
Could you please tell me who or what was behind that atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima near the end of WWII and destroyed the city almost completely?
 
Also, do you think it was Hitler's religion that led him to nearly end the Jewish community? Over 60 million people were killed in that war. And when you reply, please do not mix Nazi with Religion.
 
And while you are at it, please free to explain WWI and the reasons why the casualties of that war saw more than 35 million.
I am a lighthouse worn by the weather and the waves
And though I'm empty I still warn the sailors on their way