Author Topic: Tanking matches  (Read 1513 times)

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Offline Alex

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Tanking matches
« on: June 15, 2012, 11:04:09 AM »
Do you guys believe that players are tanking matches? I really don't know what to think any more. After all of these upsets at Queens, I'm really scratching my head. 

I mean I've  seen  so many matches that were just so odd. If a player X wants to preserve some energy why even bother entering a tournament. yeah, I know, endorsement money ... blah, blah ... but Nole, Rafa and Fed, for example, don't need more money (or maybe they do, not sure), they are freaking millionaires.

I just feel that tournaments like Halle and Queens are trying so hard and yes they are not slams, but we are left with almost no grass tournaments at all. Now, when I'm asking you about players tanking matches I mean, in general...

Even as a Nole fan, I've seen Djokovic playing like a retard some matches, it was obvious he didn't want to be there.  Same with Rafa and Roger. I don't know, maybe I'm being just paranoid.

 

Offline alk11

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2012, 12:17:24 PM »
Queens & Halle are very important since they are as you said only grass courts left [eastbourne to close to W]
and they always had super line up......warm up for W.....
i can see "tanking matches" in semis but first or second round no way....

its grass and much faster court & balls than Wimbledon plus its best of 3 sets...... good serving day can bring down almost anyone

in era of slowed down & homogenized courts these two tournaments are precious jewels :)

Offline Alex

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2012, 12:50:40 PM »
Queens & Halle are very important since they are as you said only grass courts left [eastbourne to close to W]
and they always had super line up......warm up for W.....
i can see "tanking matches" in semis but first or second round no way....

its grass and much faster court & balls than Wimbledon plus its best of 3 sets...... good serving day can bring down almost anyone

in era of slowed down & homogenized courts these two tournaments are precious jewels :)
I love both tournaments, for sure. but don't you find it bizarre that 12/13 seeds lost early at Queens. I've never seen so many upsets in my life. then Rafa losing to Koli in 2 sets ... just not sure. However, regardless of Queens and Halle, my question still is 'Do players tank matches?'. I think they DO.

Offline garion

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2012, 01:19:08 PM »
maybe not tanking per se. Maybe not going all out. Tanking to me implies purposely losing. I think, the strategy would be to get the feel of the surface, but don't hurt yourself, don't go crazy. If you lose you lose but try and win. I also think this works for those seeds whose ranking is high.


See Tsonga for a good reason why one would be careful with a slam 2 weeks away.

Offline falcon

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2012, 03:56:24 PM »
"Of course, every one knows it" Didn't Murray say this? I would believe him because he is inside the business. He knows what happens.


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Offline medwatt

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 05:44:47 PM »
Tennis is a biased sport. Different players thrive on different surfaces. So in an era where courts are playing like tortoise we see a different set of players plough and harvest. These same players under different conditions would certainly have different results. I mean, look, its so funny that at the time of the year we see players we haven't heard of so long have success over higher ranked players. Is it luck ? No, it is certain that as much as slower courts play on the hands of grinders as much as faster-court players would relish the chance on faster surfaces.

The most overlooked point no one sees is how much we praise certain players and completely disregard others in disdain. But if we are only a little bit objective and switch the courts (slow to fast) then we could possible have a new set of top 10/20.

F. Mayer playing on clay might look a flop. Put him on grass and he suddenly looks good. He won against Nadal last year which only makes my reasoning more comprehensible.
Davydenko was such a good hard/clay court player. On grass he looks a flop.

So tennis is now imbued with blind fans who think tennis is all about grinding thus completely eliminating the beauty of being creative and killing whatever art bequeathed.

Roland Garros this year was so slow. However that is clay and that is how it is supposed to be played. So why then is grass not playing like grass and why then there is only 1 competitive tournament on grass ? Why deprive other players of their strength.

Thanks Alex for being very un-subjective and having an open eye  !!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 05:46:17 PM by medwatt »
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Offline Lugburz

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 07:02:03 PM »
Sorry but I really don't believe in tanking matches.
Tanking sets? Yes, but surely don't believe in tanking matches, its ridiculous and an insult to players who are doing their best to win and satisfy the fans.
Halle and Queens are definitely the most important grass tours out there, and they suit as very good prep for Wimbly.
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Offline Alex

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2012, 07:13:59 PM »
Med, you do have some great points about different surfaces. We talked about it so many times, how all surfaces are homogenized and almost play the same. they even slowed down the USO. I would love to see Wimbledon going back to fast grass.

However, I think I've seen too many matches when players are simply not trying at all for all kinda different reasons.

Offline Alex

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 07:26:00 PM »
Sorry but I really don't believe in tanking matches.
Tanking sets? Yes, but surely don't believe in tanking matches, its ridiculous and an insult to players who are doing their best to win and satisfy the fans.
Halle and Queens are definitely the most important grass tours out there, and they suit as very good prep for Wimbly.
Lug, again we are not talking about Queens and Hale per se here. again, in general. I remember back in 2008 when Djokovic won his first major. He goes to Rotterdam  and plays like he was a 5.0 player. He wasn't able to put the ball back in the court. Young Novak was very emotional ... in this match he was simply not interested at all, looked so lethargic. I also remember many of Nadal's matches when a big bull just didn't give a damn ....

Davydenko was notorious for tanking matches. That's why he got in trouble with the ATP ... remember that?

Again, it might be just my impression, but guys do tank.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 07:54:22 PM by Alex »

Offline Lugburz

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 07:46:23 PM »
Rgr, I just mentioned Queens and Halle due to recent 'upsets'...

But apart from those, I still don't believe it, simply because its a matter of players determination and focus.
Ofc you will see players not caring for 250events that much as for masters for example.
It all comes down to what goal certain player has in mind.

So basically to me, its not tanking its rather lack of determination.
Perfect example are players that are in top5 atm, they usually call these tours as preparation for next big event, rather than focusing on winning it, which is after all - understandable.


edit: Basically what you said, its kinda similar to my opinion :''in this match he was simply not interested at all, looked so lethargic.''
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 07:50:49 PM by Lugburz »
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Offline Swish

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 08:52:26 PM »
I don't think it's tanking.
Players are just not on top of their game or tired at times.
Other times they just don't feel the strong motivation they need.
 
Sometimes the players just go and hope the motivation will be there come match time.
 
The same can be applied to any job, sometimes I just feel like putting in the hours and getting the hell out of there.  :cool:

Offline hercules

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2012, 09:32:22 PM »
clay to grass is a very tough adjustment.
 
it takes more than just a 3-4 hours of hitting on grass to be able to make a run at the grass tournament.
 
and then there is fatigue: clay is not exactly an easy surface to win titles on. it takes a lot out of you.
 
nadal took queens once after dominating the clay season but he was also a lot younger then.
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Offline Mertov

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2012, 04:35:38 AM »
maybe not tanking per se. Maybe not going all out. Tanking to me implies purposely losing. I think, the strategy would be to get the feel of the surface, but don't hurt yourself, don't go crazy. If you lose you lose but try and win. I also think this works for those seeds whose ranking is high.

See Tsonga for a good reason why one would be careful with a slam 2 weeks away.

Garion summarized it very well imo, especially in Rafa's case in grass tournaments before Wimbledon.

That being said, all-out tanking also takes place.  Just like any professional going to his workday has days where he tanks, it happens in tennis also for various reasons.  For example, Kafelnikov tanked completely against Hugo Armando (a player who never cracked top 100 and remained a challenger-satellite level player most of his 12-year career, his highest ranking was 100, and that came after that week) in the 2nd round of Kitzbuhel in 2001, when he was seeded 2nd.  The score was 6/1 6/1 in 45 minutes, and Kafelnikov did not even hide the fact that he was tanking.  I remember him double-faulting, going for a huge second serve, and when he was whistled by the crowd, he pushed the first serve in, then zapped the next shot straight to the wall on the other side of the court, as if to mock the crowd (it also possible that the match was fixed).

Also Federer pretty much tanked against Volandri in Rome in 2007, 6/2 6/4.  He did not really make it look respectable by not going all-out like Rafa did yesterday, his body language showed clearly that he did not want to be there, Volandri said as much after the match also, but also punctuated that he was not complaining.

Sometimes players need to leave urgently for a reason or another, or simply regret singing up for the tournament becuase circumstances are different now then when they signed up, but instead of not showing up and possibly getting fined, they will show up and tank.  I believe (although I am not as sure), this is what happened to Tsonga in Cincinnati in 2009, when he played a great Canadian Open the week before, losing in the semis to Murray, then came and lost Chris Guccione in Cincinnati first round.  He actually tried in the first set (in a respectable way, not all-out), and lost it in a very close tiebreaker, and then he switched the lights off, losing the second set 6/2 in about 20 minutes I believe.  He was rushing between points at warp speed and looked completely ready to leave after the switch over at the end of the first set.  He won the two games because he served an ace and nailed shots that happened to go in, or Guccione simply made mistakes.

Anyhow, tanking does happen, but again, rarely.  Most are the cases such as garion pointed out.

Offline conchita

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2012, 05:17:56 AM »
Queens & Halle are very important since they are as you said only grass courts left [eastbourne to close to W]
and they always had super line up......warm up for W.....
i can see "tanking matches" in semis but first or second round no way....

its grass and much faster court & balls than Wimbledon plus its best of 3 sets...... good serving day can bring down almost anyone

in era of slowed down & homogenized courts these two tournaments are precious jewels :)
I love both tournaments, for sure. but don't you find it bizarre that 12/13 seeds lost early at Queens. I've never seen so many upsets in my life. then Rafa losing to Koli in 2 sets ... just not sure. However, regardless of Queens and Halle, my question still is 'Do players tank matches?'. I think they DO.

no, it's not bizarre, you know I have been posting results in the last 4 years in this forum, it's not only Queen's and Halle, you can also add the same bizarre results in Birmingham, Eastbourne and Den Bosch.

Queens and Halle are not very important anymore, sadly there's not grass season, just 5 tourneys to play on a different grass from the one of Wimby. Players all around think they don't need really anymore some matches to make transition from clay to Wimby green clay grass.
Sadly grass is not a significant surface anymore, just you can say the most prestigious tourney in the world is played on grass, but somehow with the aprroach taken by the players it's like the biggest show of the year, not really a tourney,  almost Wimby has become the biggest sporting exho in the world taking how significant the surface is.  In fact Wimby is even more unique because the USO and AO are not longer played at Forest Hillls and Kooyong on grass.
Wait for the Wimby draw and see how many seeded players at SW19 have won 2-3 matches on grass before. Perhaps even Wimby is this year almost 50-50 in importance for the players as the Olympics and the true warmup for the Olympic showdown, so really no need this year a lot of Halle, Queens, Eastbourne, Den Bosch and Birmingham. the transition from clay to the Wimby grass takes 2 1st round sets for a top player, they played so similar style of game. 

it's really very sad. especially when you have that wonderful jewel of Halle who sometimes wishful thinking could be a MS in the future (combined event in 2014) and take the place of the blueclay Madrid or, trully the season ends at the USO, Shanghai or  whocares Bercy. sad.   

About the general tanking it has always happened in tennis history, same as the fixed draws, this season there have been incredible patterns especially in the WTA draws. when Mahut and Isner where drawed to play again in the 1st round enough.
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Offline hercules

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2012, 12:20:09 PM »
tanking is a viable and a very important strategy in the sport of tennis.
 
the sport has become quite demanding but that is not the only reason why one may decide to put in a relaxed effort.
 
players have their own reasons as to when and why they may want to tank.
 
 
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2012, 01:20:39 PM »
Queens & Halle are very important since they are as you said only grass courts left [eastbourne to close to W]
and they always had super line up......warm up for W.....
i can see "tanking matches" in semis but first or second round no way....

its grass and much faster court & balls than Wimbledon plus its best of 3 sets...... good serving day can bring down almost anyone

in era of slowed down & homogenized courts these two tournaments are precious jewels :)
I love both tournaments, for sure. but don't you find it bizarre that 12/13 seeds lost early at Queens. I've never seen so many upsets in my life. then Rafa losing to Koli in 2 sets ... just not sure. However, regardless of Queens and Halle, my question still is 'Do players tank matches?'. I think they DO.

no, it's not bizarre, you know I have been posting results in the last 4 years in this forum, it's not only Queen's and Halle, you can also add the same bizarre results in Birmingham, Eastbourne and Den Bosch.

Queens and Halle are not very important anymore, sadly there's not grass season, just 5 tourneys to play on a different grass from the one of Wimby. Players all around think they don't need really anymore some matches to make transition from clay to Wimby green clay grass.
Sadly grass is not a significant surface anymore, just you can say the most prestigious tourney in the world is played on grass, but somehow with the aprroach taken by the players it's like the biggest show of the year, not really a tourney,  almost Wimby has become the biggest sporting exho in the world taking how significant the surface is.  In fact Wimby is even more unique because the USO and AO are not longer played at Forest Hillls and Kooyong on grass.
Wait for the Wimby draw and see how many seeded players at SW19 have won 2-3 matches on grass before. Perhaps even Wimby is this year almost 50-50 in importance for the players as the Olympics and the true warmup for the Olympic showdown, so really no need this year a lot of Halle, Queens, Eastbourne, Den Bosch and Birmingham. the transition from clay to the Wimby grass takes 2 1st round sets for a top player, they played so similar style of game. 

it's really very sad. especially when you have that wonderful jewel of Halle who sometimes wishful thinking could be a MS in the future (combined event in 2014) and take the place of the blueclay Madrid or, trully the season ends at the USO, Shanghai or  whocares Bercy. sad.   

About the general tanking it has always happened in tennis history, same as the fixed draws, this season there have been incredible patterns especially in the WTA draws. when Mahut and Isner where drawed to play again in the 1st round enough.
Spot on Conchita!
The homogenization of the surfaces has changed the game drastically.
Tanking happens in all sports, and it is most certainly grueling to go from a clay final to real grass.
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Offline medwatt

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2012, 01:29:29 PM »
clay to grass is a very tough adjustment.
 
it takes more than just a 3-4 hours of hitting on grass to be able to make a run at the grass tournament.
 
and then there is fatigue: clay is not exactly an easy surface to win titles on. it takes a lot out of you.
 
nadal took queens once after dominating the clay season but he was also a lot younger then.
You meant the adaptation from Red Colour to Green Colour is difficult because nobody wants to fool anybody here.
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2012, 01:48:40 PM »
clay to grass is a very tough adjustment.
 
it takes more than just a 3-4 hours of hitting on grass to be able to make a run at the grass tournament.
 
and then there is fatigue: clay is not exactly an easy surface to win titles on. it takes a lot out of you.
 
nadal took queens once after dominating the clay season but he was also a lot younger then.
You meant the adaptation from Red Colour to Green Colour is difficult because nobody wants to fool anybody here.
You simply... :rofl_2: must........  :lol-cry: stop........ :shakey:!

You're killin' me!!! :lmao!:

That's why some folks didn't like the blue in Madrid.
Red to Green is hard enough. :)~
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Offline Alex

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2012, 01:58:46 PM »
clay to grass is a very tough adjustment.
 
it takes more than just a 3-4 hours of hitting on grass to be able to make a run at the grass tournament.
 
and then there is fatigue: clay is not exactly an easy surface to win titles on. it takes a lot out of you.
 
nadal took queens once after dominating the clay season but he was also a lot younger then.
You meant the adaptation from Red Colour to Green Colour is difficult because nobody wants to fool anybody here.
you are hilarious  :rofl_2:...

Offline hercules

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Re: Tanking matches
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2012, 03:16:52 PM »
not really general alex. '
 
 
stop blowing smoke up medwatt`s dress.
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