Author Topic: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?  (Read 3717 times)

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Offline jesse james

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2015, 02:18:47 PM »
i'm not interested in Carl bloody Jung, and i don't' get what his patented brand of psychobabble has to do with the apparent irreconcilability of divergent political and moral positions anyway. Even if his assertions about the innateness of certain aspects of character actually turned out to be the case, how would that shed light on this issue?
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Offline Nekro t4u

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2015, 12:47:02 AM »
i'm not interested in Carl bloody Jung, and i don't' get what his patented brand of psychobabble has to do with the apparent irreconcilability of divergent political and moral positions anyway. Even if his assertions about the innateness of certain aspects of character actually turned out to be the case, how would that shed light on this issue?
This is how it sheds light on the issue m8  :rofl_2:

Hi Emma, i wont' quote you directly, because we end up with those bulky posts, so i'll respond to your post in this one.

If you are talking about our moral and political views, then I don't think they're natural at all, there may be certain innate biases that may push our morality in certain directions, but civilisation and our moral and political cultures are far more about taming or curtailing those instincts rather than allowing them to flourish.

Morality, unlike language, has to be taught - there are studies showing how often parents inculcate infants with moral values and reprove them etc and its quite astonishing, it's hundreds of times a day.
You see, you have been trying to convince your readers morality has to be learnt..... The spiritual "core" to which  people arrive at the end of the individuation process guarantees people can't be conditioned (at least when it comes to mature people who know who they are) to be morally inclined to do one thing or another, vote this way or that.... It would be better to call what you're talking about manipulation and manipulated behaviour, not (true) morality...

When people have gone through the individuation process Jung describes in his books then they can't really be taught morality..... That's my point.....

BTW I was rofling at the image of Emma and her ex almost breaking up cause of the puppy issue, so redneck  :hysterical:

BTW I understand the hostility to Jung, he could think out of the box and he's a real Clydey (the stereotypical western philosopher) killer  :rofl_2:

If i'm allowed to ramble 1 or 2 or 3 lines more, no wonder Clydey (like most western philosophers) doesn't really know who he is and he said his life's purpose was to create something big for Scotland's glory (again so redneck :lol: )

I hope btw Emma returns to you m8, patronizing her must be a real sexual experience for you and it's so cute when she's showing off her expertise on Quantum Physics  :hysterical: :not worthy: (she always manages to do that no matter what the discussion is about  :tounge-smile:)


On a serious note, this is the problem with discussions like this.......  ofc people can't prove they experienced something like mystical individuation, but you can't prove either there's nothing innate about morality....

The same goes for some new branches of medical science and healing.... Some western docs believe in and work with meridians some other docs deny even their existence......  And the people who claim they experience the flow of energy in them ofc can't prove they do so......  at least for now.....



Offline monstertruck

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2015, 04:55:10 AM »
i'm not interested in Carl bloody Jung, and i don't' get what his patented brand of psychobabble has to do with the apparent irreconcilability of divergent political and moral positions anyway. Even if his assertions about the innateness of certain aspects of character actually turned out to be the case, how would that shed light on this issue?
What did you expect from a nutter? :confused1:
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Offline Nekro t4u

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2015, 11:29:51 AM »
What did you expect from a nutter? :confused1:
Welcome to my thread mucksta, what's up breda?  :rasta:

Listen brah, you're a bit late with your post cause i already gave my very logical answer to jesse how Jung is relevant here but i know it's dire times out there for ya, with all your threads dead and whatnot, you being friendless and stuff, while there's life and chitchat going on in my threads and me getting complimented by the girls, even your m8 Alex, but you know how it is, i'm popular and stuff, i got complimented even by a poster of dubious gender, you know she considered me some kind of love guru  :rofl_2:

Anyway, take a seat and relax, spam away, do whatever you want to, i'm always glad when people make the post count of my threads grow and i always have a warm seat for the homeless and the friendless...... You know what? if you want a solidarity visit from Freebird or one of your homies just pm me and i'll troll you in the tennis section til they pop up, but then you're alone bro, you know if you're just the boring old mucksta as usual all the birds fly away  :Confused:


Is there no love for Jung here really???????.... I understand jesse, with philosophy for philosophy's sake being demolished everywhere, all the frames and budgets at unis being killed off for philosophy students while there's actually need for and money in psychology, no wonder so many old schoolers are hating on Jung, but i really thought someone mystical and mysterious like Emma will jump on him  :tounge-smile:

Offline monstertruck

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2015, 11:54:08 AM »
Heck, you're a regular internet celebrity.
Just ask you. ;-()
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Offline jesse james

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2015, 02:33:36 PM »
i'm not interested in Carl bloody Jung, and i don't' get what his patented brand of psychobabble has to do with the apparent irreconcilability of divergent political and moral positions anyway. Even if his assertions about the innateness of certain aspects of character actually turned out to be the case, how would that shed light on this issue?
This is how it sheds light on the issue m8  :rofl_2:

Hi Emma, i wont' quote you directly, because we end up with those bulky posts, so i'll respond to your post in this one.

If you are talking about our moral and political views, then I don't think they're natural at all, there may be certain innate biases that may push our morality in certain directions, but civilisation and our moral and political cultures are far more about taming or curtailing those instincts rather than allowing them to flourish.

Morality, unlike language, has to be taught - there are studies showing how often parents inculcate infants with moral values and reprove them etc and its quite astonishing, it's hundreds of times a day.
You see, you have been trying to convince your readers morality has to be learnt..... The spiritual "core" to which  people arrive at the end of the individuation process guarantees people can't be conditioned (at least when it comes to mature people who know who they are) to be morally inclined to do one thing or another, vote this way or that.... It would be better to call what you're talking about manipulation and manipulated behaviour, not (true) morality...

When people have gone through the individuation process Jung describes in his books then they can't really be taught morality..... That's my point.....

BTW I was rofling at the image of Emma and her ex almost breaking up cause of the puppy issue, so redneck  :hysterical:

BTW I understand the hostility to Jung, he could think out of the box and he's a real Clydey (the stereotypical western philosopher) killer  :rofl_2:

If i'm allowed to ramble 1 or 2 or 3 lines more, no wonder Clydey (like most western philosophers) doesn't really know who he is and he said his life's purpose was to create something big for Scotland's glory (again so redneck :lol: )

I hope btw Emma returns to you m8, patronizing her must be a real sexual experience for you and it's so cute when she's showing off her expertise on Quantum Physics  :hysterical: :not worthy: (she always manages to do that no matter what the discussion is about  :tounge-smile:)


On a serious note, this is the problem with discussions like this.......  ofc people can't prove they experienced something like mystical individuation, but you can't prove either there's nothing innate about morality....

The same goes for some new branches of medical science and healing.... Some western docs believe in and work with meridians some other docs deny even their existence......  And the people who claim they experience the flow of energy in them ofc can't prove they do so......  at least for now.....

I don't believe in a 'spiritual core' in a Jungian or any other sense, but objectively all the Abrahamic and indeed all -as far as i'm aware, of the world religions inculcate moral values and see that as an integral part of the spiritual journey, the moral and spiritual are mutually inclusive in that global and historical sense. Since the particular Jungian hypothesis you refer to is necessarily transcendent, it cannot be held as the logical consequence of what are essentially empirical assertions. Whether manipulated or inculcated we still act according to social norms that are imbibed.

Your point about my getting sexual gratification from patronising Emma is incredibly low - I state my point of view earnestly, in an unabashed fashion as intelligently as i can, your point is pure salacious conjecture.
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Offline Nekro t4u

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2015, 01:29:23 AM »
I don't believe in a 'spiritual core' in a Jungian or any other sense, but objectively all the Abrahamic and indeed all -as far as i'm aware, of the world religions inculcate moral values and see that as an integral part of the spiritual journey, the moral and spiritual are mutually inclusive in that global and historical sense. Since the particular Jungian hypothesis you refer to is necessarily transcendent, it cannot be held as the logical consequence of what are essentially empirical assertions. Whether manipulated or inculcated we still act according to social norms that are imbibed.

Your point about my getting sexual gratification from patronising Emma is incredibly low - I state my point of view earnestly, in an unabashed fashion as intelligently as i can, your point is pure salacious conjecture.
sorry about that joke that was low for real  :rofl_2:

It was quite obvious you didn't believe in one..... you see that's the problem with western thinking...... the historical perspective, and "let's interpret the bible every freaking lesson" and that's spirituality for them......

The spiritual journey Jung describes is much much different..... it's like going on a real life journey to another country, actually it's much more intense to the person it happens to.......

Like there are those chakras and meridians.... You don't believe in a spiritual core so i guess you don't believe in these eastern "concepts" either......... The problem is, western people shrug things like these off even if they experience them......   a guy on a forum for example said he smoked weed and he felt his penis spinning..... and another guy told him that was his chakra spinning there but the smoker guy just shrugged it off, ignored it...... Another reaction from people like that is "Sane people call that a trip" and you see trying to find explanations to things that we experience is not cool  :rofl_2:  My second cousin is a doctor ( a real one) and i was surprised when at a family meeting she talked about meridians and that she was learning about them cause they were looking into eastern healing..... maybe one day with the help of science we'll be able to see the chakras and the meridians and then people will look into eastern mysticism more......

The mystical journey is ofc not something cultural or historical, and it has nothing to do with formal or family education.... When the kundalini goes up the spine it actually feels very physical and scary...... and all the phenomena the happen before and after....... and yes, it's something very transcendent...... Jung said that people get into contact with the ancient magical and demonic forces this way, and it's a much different field of knowledge from what people can get through formal education and everyday experiences....

i brought up Jung here cause he's well documented and it's much better to use him instead of the Bible for example  :rofl_2: when it comes to spiritual and/or innate things....

Offline jesse james

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2015, 05:42:03 PM »
Jung is very much a product of 'Western thinking', in fact it's the relative freedom of thought that the West provides, coupled with the post enlightenment spirit of intellectual adventure, that allows for speculation with regard to things the character of the mind, religion, ethics, politics etc. that doesn't' negate that we are the products of our backgrounds - Jungs own religious background was seminal in his thinking, and he never really transcended it, but the eschewing of triditional religious conformity was crucial for this undertakings. It's not surprising that an examination of the unconscious that transcends mysticism or religious dogma was formulated in the West, by people like Jung and Freud, and shortcomings with their theories not withstanding, are at least pioneering.

The reason Jung chimed so perfectly with the counter cultural ism of the sixties, is that the sixties represent a turning away from traditional hierarchical structures -the church, the family, class etc, only to be replaced with a more privatised pluralist -essentially modern idea of the spiritual. this is quintessential Western modernity, of which you are a product, Western thinking is heterogeneous by definition, not the monolith you describe.

But this has nothing to do with the points i was making, and seems off topic to say the least.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 05:43:36 PM by jesse james »
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Offline Nekro t4u

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2015, 09:48:51 AM »
Jung is very much a product of 'Western thinking', in fact it's the relative freedom of thought that the West provides, coupled with the post enlightenment spirit of intellectual adventure, that allows for speculation with regard to things the character of the mind, religion, ethics, politics etc. that doesn't' negate that we are the products of our backgrounds - Jungs own religious background was seminal in his thinking, and he never really transcended it, but the eschewing of triditional religious conformity was crucial for this undertakings. It's not surprising that an examination of the unconscious that transcends mysticism or religious dogma was formulated in the West, by people like Jung and Freud, and shortcomings with their theories not withstanding, are at least pioneering.

The reason Jung chimed so perfectly with the counter cultural ism of the sixties, is that the sixties represent a turning away from traditional hierarchical structures -the church, the family, class etc, only to be replaced with a more privatised pluralist -essentially modern idea of the spiritual. this is quintessential Western modernity, of which you are a product, Western thinking is heterogeneous by definition, not the monolith you describe.

But this has nothing to do with the points i was making, and seems off topic to say the least.
Hey, np it's off-topic,  you are making some great points...

on the other hand, i disagree with you some places....

My purpose was not to describe Western thinking as something monolithic, actually, i was generalizing about the "western thinker" type of people you see on, let's say, tennis forums...... Atheists who look on spirituality from a historical perspective, but usually they just see philosophy really useful mostly as a propaganda tool, etc etc ....

About Jung i also have to disagree, he didn't get into "counter culturalism" as a mature thinker, as a reaction to what was going on, like " hey let's do something different", actually, as a kid he made himself a little "Anima totem" and was talking to "her", he also created a language to use in this communication... That's something very non-Christian.... and imo it's a proof it's not the intellectual atmosphere of those times that influenced him.... imo he was just an exceptional talent....

Anyway. I've read about hundreds of Jung's clients, dream analyses and all..... and his writings are what i would call true spirituality...... actually, i find many of his writings similar to some spiritual Yoga masters' ones, i'll talk about this later..........

There's for example the Anima and the Animus.... I think you're already familiar with these concepts, anyway, basically the Anima (it means soul) is kindofa spiritual mediator to the upper realms for men and for women ofc this is the Animus (who is a man) ......  So what is this concept good for????? it's great for explaining many strange phenomena, like  the succubus/incubus one, cause the Anima can appear as a succubus, or can give advice when it comes to finding the ideal marriage partner, and it can also appear as a death demon..... in spiritual yoga, this is the angel of death who tears the soul out of the body....... now for example, this was an interesting help for me, like in the case of my grandmother's death........ well, long story short, my grandma made my dad's life hell, and as she was dying (my father wasn't present) she was screaming his name in fear and terror.... it was obvious she didn't want to talk to him one last time but  she was terrified and scared of him, like my father was killing her..... ofc the woman who was with her and my mom didn't get what was going on, but i'm convinced that her Animus, as death angel used my father's appearance to finish her off for what she did to him......

or there are the initiations into death kind of experiences/dreams (i can write a lot more about this phenomenon if anyone's curious) ..... if there was no spiritual core or inner spiritual guide what would be the explanation for the existence of this kind of initiations...........

ofc many people live their lives in the treadwheel and never have even a darned succubus experience.... they get their knowledge and culture from school books and their limited experience only so no wonder they believe in nothing spiritual


Offline jesse james

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2015, 12:33:12 PM »
you say you don't want to have a monolithic view about western thought, but then you are! saying that ' Atheists who look on spirituality from a historical perspective, but usually they just see philosophy really useful mostly as a propaganda tool' is exactly that. Your are a product of the West yourself, so is Jung, unless you get over thinking of 'the West' as somehow having very similar mindsets, you're stuck in an intellectual cul-de-sac in which your just not seeing things as they actually are. the West is profoundly diverse, and there are a myriad views on spirituality, religion,  politics or anything else you care to mention. Secularism does exist, but it's certainly not the overarching view of the world. What's actually happened in the West is that the supremacy of a particular religion, namely Catholicism, has been in decline since the reformation . There are now many churches -even within Christianity- all claiming they have the truth, and many spiritual denominations all claiming that they are the truth too. Doesn't interest me, they can all shriek from the pulpit, the mosque, temple, living room, spiritualist church -wherever, that they're view of the soul is correct, i have zero interest in these assertions and claims. To hold up an idea of spiritualism or how to be spiritual as 'the truth, is idolatrous, which confuses a human conception of spirituality with the ineffable (if i assume for the sake of argument that the soul exists), ergo i find all religious and claims about the soul to be meaningless.

Not sure what you mean when you say Jung 'didn't get into "counter culturalism" as a mature thinker, as a reaction to what was going on, like " hey let's do something different", actually, as a kid he made himself a little "Anima totem", i never suggested that those were Jungs intentions, i was saying that Jung was adopted by some thinkers in the sixties because his thoughts and practices paralleled some of those emerging at the time, not that he adhered to some counter culture.
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Offline Nekro t4u

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2015, 07:48:41 PM »
you say you don't want to have a monolithic view about western thought, but then you are! saying that ' Atheists who look on spirituality from a historical perspective, but usually they just see philosophy really useful mostly as a propaganda tool' is exactly that.
Again, when i said that i was talking not about western thinking which i'm aware is heretogeneous and diverse - guess what, Spinoza is one of my favs - i was generalizing about a certain type of western thinkers who tend to pop up on tennis forums....

i have zero interest in these assertions and claims. To hold up an idea of spiritualism or how to be spiritual as 'the truth, is idolatrous, which confuses a human conception of spirituality with the ineffable (if i assume for the sake of argument that the soul exists), ergo i find all religious and claims about the soul to be meaningless.
That's you but others have interest in it...... Like the people to whom Jung gave practical help with his analyses..... Also Jung could predict the future in many cases through his knowledge........ The true spiritual knowledge i'm talking about is 'true' cause it actually helps to explain what's going on in the world around us.... it helps explain phenomena like the weed smoker's case..... Christianity is useless in those cases....... you're mixing up the spirituality i'm talking about with institutionalized spirituality which, as you said, usually tries to force its views on people and is usually involved in politics, warfare, etc.....

Offline jesse james

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2015, 10:48:01 AM »
But by cleaving to Jungs concept of spirituality you've joined an institution- not in the formal sense, but you've signed up to a method that claims to show the truth, the way etc, which is exactly what all the major religions have always required, it's just on a smaller scale, or to put it another way, not many people actually believe it.  Jungs approach still employs a set of techniques which adherents like you claim yields spiritual knowledge, which is exactly what every religious or spiritual group claims. Religions and spiritual secs have bifurcated over the last 500 years (more or less), smaller religious and spiritual groups are growing - they all claim that they have the means to spiritual enlightenment, but they are themselves institutions with a set of techniques, truths and credos etc that the adherent espouses, there is no substantial difference between your standpoint and there's, except yours is a minority belief system. You claim to know the truth, so do all the others, unfortunately none of them can prove it, which is why you can't reason someone out of something they never reasoned themselves into in the first place-this is just idolatry for a modern age. 
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Offline Nekro t4u

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2015, 02:35:42 PM »
But by cleaving to Jungs concept of spirituality you've joined an institution- not in the formal sense, but you've signed up to a method that claims to show the truth, the way etc, which is exactly what all the major religions have always required, it's just on a smaller scale, or to put it another way, not many people actually believe it.  Jungs approach still employs a set of techniques which adherents like you claim yields spiritual knowledge, which is exactly what every religious or spiritual group claims. Religions and spiritual secs have bifurcated over the last 500 years (more or less), smaller religious and spiritual groups are growing - they all claim that they have the means to spiritual enlightenment, but they are themselves institutions with a set of techniques, truths and credos etc that the adherent espouses, there is no substantial difference between your standpoint and there's, except yours is a minority belief system. You claim to know the truth, so do all the others, unfortunately none of them can prove it, which is why you can't reason someone out of something they never reasoned themselves into in the first place-this is just idolatry for a modern age.
You see you're generalizing too, you're biased against spirituality and trying to find idolatry where there's not any.....

From what i've read and heard Jung must have had some very unique techniques/methods but he's mostly known for his dream analyses..... In those the readers meet symbolism they've potentially met in their own dreams.... and then they start discovering the meanings of their dreams more and more and probably put that knowledge to practical use....

I don't claim that Jung is the only way and the road to enlightenment is only through him...... Actually the best spiritual teachers/guides say that anybody can reach enlightenment...... a christian, muslim or even a non-believer....... one of my school teachers for example said if you do something exceptionally well you will see God......

A good spiritual yoga book for example is like a manual to a TV or a router......  it describes a method and if you follow that method you should get and this and that result....... it doesn't claim that what's within that book is the only way to anything....

Ofc there are the svindlers and the impostors out there who try to rip people off, abusing spirituality or at least what they want to pass for spirituality..... however, many people abuse math, coding, IT to rip others off, so should we say "i'm not interested in math cause some people use it to rip others off" ? cause it seems to me you're coming back to conclusions like that ......

The fact that spiritual phenomena are hard to prove doesn't mean they don't exist or that working with them cannot bring beneficial results..... or that science won't grow up one day to a level that will enable us to scientifically study them.....

gtg now good night to You  :ZZZZZ)

Offline jesse james

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2015, 11:06:46 AM »
You've more or less concurred exactly with what i said, but embellished it to a logical conclusion that well exceeds incredulity of my previous  description......on the one hand you want to imply Jung has a unique approach on the other there are many paths to spirituality which seem equally valid, i'm sure you can see the tension in the juxtaposition of those two statements.
  We can all speculate proving spiritual phenomena, that's neither here nor there-that's not what we're discussing, if it were, i'ld engage with that, what i'm talking about is the inherent truth to claims about the transcendent that are held up as being orthodoxy, when that is simply idolatroustjic nonsense.

As it's day here now, i'll wish you a very good day!
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Offline Nekro t4u

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Re: How "true" are you as a leftist/rightist?
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2015, 12:09:55 AM »
what i'm talking about is the inherent truth to claims about the transcendent that are held up as being orthodoxy, when that is simply idolatroustjic nonsense.

As it's day here now, i'll wish you a very good day!
held up as orthodoxy by organized religion???

I have to agree that's idolatry.....  in Jung's system the ancient self, i don't know how to put it more precisely cause i read his works in non-english languages, in mine it's "ősvaló", is unique to every person...... and btw in dream symbols it can appear as a bear for example, so being chased by a bear can mean soon getting confronted by great spiritual changes ............  a dream of mine that i managed to analyze with the help of Jung: a bear was chasing me, no matter what shelter and house i went to it broke it and was coming after me. and finally i reached a hut where i found a rifle, and i aimed it at the bear but then it pointed its paw at a camion, and i didn't shoot it.... you see, camion or train or some kind of big vehicle is usually the symbol of progress.... so it meant i will find a way to progress through my ancient self and i don't have to run from it or kill off this instinct.....

btw another interesting thing from my language,  the word for instinct is "ösztön", the word for God is "Isten", actually, a doctor pointed this out on TV  :king: he said that it can be suppressed but it shouldn't be

I've been digressing a bit again, so, in Jung's system, the ancient self is different for everybody so when people reach their ancient self they'll get to their inherent master morality, which, however, can be different to everybody... that means that the idolatrous adherence to something held up as orthodoxy makes no sense indeed....

on the one hand you want to imply Jung has a unique approach on the other there are many paths to spirituality which seem equally valid, i'm sure you can see the tension in the juxtaposition of those two statements.
sorry i forgot to address this other issue....

Jung did things which were strange and unique, like talking with his totem in the language he created and he also liked to play, you know like childen, building things in the garden...... those must have been meditation techniques which helped him get into a more intuitive state of mind...... However, the symbols and the spiritual contents of the "collective subconscious" that he got the infos and the insights about through that intuition are universal and can be "studied" by people using other techniques......
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 03:25:14 AM by Nekro t4u »