Author Topic: Mass shooting in Connecticut elementary school 27 dead including 18 children  (Read 2952 times)

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Offline FedFanForever

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All I know is the left has jumped the shark with their death threats, other threats and calls to repeal the 2nd Amendment. Oh and Alex - you might want to read up on the US Constitution.
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline Alex

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my problem is, America is going down (you can't just keep printing money and hope for the best), Canada too because we are so dependent (our economy) on the USA. Neither the States or Canada produces anything any more. We live like parasites, not making anything. well, enjoy while it lasts, it won't last for too long

yeah, I feel dark tonight  :gleam:

Offline Nekro t4u

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my problem is, America is going down (you can't just keep printing money and hope for the best), Canada too because we are so dependent (our economy) on the USA. Neither the States or Canada produces anything any more. We live like parasites, not making anything. well, enjoy while it lasts, it won't last for too long

yeah, I feel dark tonight  :gleam:

Well, everything is produced elsewhere. They take something to Korea, then the labor unions achieve something there then the companies go to Indonesia, but all of them end up in China.
Isn't this thread about gun control though?

Offline monstertruck

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All I know is the left has jumped the shark with their death threats, other threats and calls to repeal the 2nd Amendment. Oh and Alex - you might want to read up on the US Constitution.
It's amazing how few american's have actually read or know much about it.  Alex gets a free pass on this one.
CONK da ball!!!

Offline jesse james

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Srebrenica is overrated, and at least we dont start resource wars every five to ten years that are hidden behind a mask of "war against terrorism" . As we Serbs would says " Whore talks about moral." ..Check your backyard first!

Srebrenica is one of the worst atrocities ever committed. Serbians will be forever tarnished by that act of genocide.

Why should I be marked for something I did not commit  do nor anyone form my family? If you could draw parallels like that than same could be said for both  Croats and Bosnian Muslims, and many other nations including Americans (remember Native Americans eh?), there is a name  behind every crime. Pure ignorance from you.
The same arguement could be used for gun ownership.
Why should law abiding citizens be punished for the actions of others.... ;-()

Is missing the point something Americans are taught at school, or is it genetic?

In any society there are curbs on the freedoms of all citizens, that's axiomatic. The freedom to swing my fist stops at your face-would you say i was being punished for having that particular liberty denied?  Shouting fire in a crowded theatre when there is no fire is a limitation on my free speech, would having that freedom denied count as a punishment for me? The freedom drive a car while drunk curtails my freedom, do you think that's an illegitimate punishment of the inebriated?
    Liberty isn't an absolute, i cannot be, i hope you can see that in a few examples i've given. freedom and liberty are virtues in themselves.
So it's really a question of what counts as a legitimate curtailing of freedom. The freedom to carry a weapon verses a statistical increase in the deaths of innocent people. People will die so some can pursue their habit of carrying a gun, that's the real choice.
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Offline FedFanForever

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In any society there are curbs on the freedoms of all citizens, that's axiomatic. The freedom to swing my fist stops at your face-would you say i was being punished for having that particular liberty denied?  Shouting fire in a crowded theatre when there is no fire is a limitation on my free speech, would having that freedom denied count as a punishment for me? The freedom drive a car while drunk curtails my freedom, do you think that's an illegitimate punishment of the inebriated?
    Liberty isn't an absolute, i cannot be, i hope you can see that in a few examples i've given. freedom and liberty are virtues in themselves.
So it's really a question of what counts as a legitimate curtailing of freedom. The freedom to carry a weapon verses a statistical increase in the deaths of innocent people. People will die so some can pursue their habit of carrying a gun, that's the real choice.

No logic there whatsoever. My carrying CCW has nothing to do with gangbangers killing each other in Chicago.
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline jesse james

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my problem is, America is going down (you can't just keep printing money and hope for the best), Canada too because we are so dependent (our economy) on the USA. Neither the States or Canada produces anything any more. We live like parasites, not making anything. well, enjoy while it lasts, it won't last for too long

yeah, I feel dark tonight  :gleam:

You're right Alex.  In real terms, wages have been pretty stagnant for the last 30 years in the US (for the vast majority). Attempts at stimulating growth in the West have failed, that's despite attempts to offset the political ramifications of this by cynically 'liberalising' credit-with disastrous effects. We've had more or less the same in the UK too.
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Offline jesse james

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In any society there are curbs on the freedoms of all citizens, that's axiomatic. The freedom to swing my fist stops at your face-would you say i was being punished for having that particular liberty denied?  Shouting fire in a crowded theatre when there is no fire is a limitation on my free speech, would having that freedom denied count as a punishment for me? The freedom drive a car while drunk curtails my freedom, do you think that's an illegitimate punishment of the inebriated?
    Liberty isn't an absolute, i cannot be, i hope you can see that in a few examples i've given. freedom and liberty are virtues in themselves.
So it's really a question of what counts as a legitimate curtailing of freedom. The freedom to carry a weapon verses a statistical increase in the deaths of innocent people. People will die so some can pursue their habit of carrying a gun, that's the real choice.

No logic there whatsoever. My carrying CCW has nothing to do with gangbangers killing each other in Chicago.

You don't understand the word 'logic' You've made an assertion that you haven't shown the logic of-there's no conclusion based inevitably on a given premise. To introduce the world logic in such a glib way measures your inadequate grasp of the word.
The more weapons there are, the more likely they are to fall into the 'wrong' hands. Here in the UK we have relatively few per capita homicides due to hand gun illegality. We changed the law after an incident at Dumblane (Andy Murray's home town) in which there were many fatalities.
I am a lighthouse worn by the weather and the waves
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Offline monstertruck

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Srebrenica is overrated, and at least we dont start resource wars every five to ten years that are hidden behind a mask of "war against terrorism" . As we Serbs would says " Whore talks about moral." ..Check your backyard first!

Srebrenica is one of the worst atrocities ever committed. Serbians will be forever tarnished by that act of genocide.

Why should I be marked for something I did not commit  do nor anyone form my family? If you could draw parallels like that than same could be said for both  Croats and Bosnian Muslims, and many other nations including Americans (remember Native Americans eh?), there is a name  behind every crime. Pure ignorance from you.
The same arguement could be used for gun ownership.
Why should law abiding citizens be punished for the actions of others.... ;-()

Is missing the point something Americans are taught at school, or is it genetic?

    Liberty isn't an absolute, i cannot be, i hope you can see that in a few examples i've given. freedom and liberty are virtues in themselves.
So it's really a question of what counts as a legitimate curtailing of freedom. The freedom to carry a weapon verses a statistical increase in the deaths of innocent people. People will die so some can pursue their habit of carrying a gun, that's the real choice.
In my case, it could be both. :))

Your first example fails because my freedom to own a piece of metal doesn't harm anyone.  Your fist hitting my face might cause me some harm. ;-()
Punish the criminals, treat the mentally unstable, and establish a society where people have enough respect for self and others that such crimes become a thing of the past.
CONK da ball!!!

Offline Alex

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no comment here, this is getting crazy and getting nowhere.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/23/nra-lapierre-hits-talk-shows.html

 I'm happy to be in Canada, to be honest with you  :whistle:, never had a gun, never will, couldn't care less ... why, the heck, ordinary citizens of any country need to have  freaking guns? It causes more problems than solutions. meh, so against it ... whatever guys. yeah, there will be crazy, sick people all around the world, but let's not make it easier for them ... no guns, no rifles, no sh!t ... even people who enjoy hunting innocent animals (Canadians are bad, it's in our culture, whatever) make me so sick. What kinda fun is to go and shoot some poore animals, it should be banned . If you are that bored, go hit your own head with something (use your frying pan) and see how it feels...

this is one of the issues I really feel so strong about.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 12:20:11 PM by Alex »

Offline jesse james

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Srebrenica is overrated, and at least we dont start resource wars every five to ten years that are hidden behind a mask of "war against terrorism" . As we Serbs would says " Whore talks about moral." ..Check your backyard first!

Srebrenica is one of the worst atrocities ever committed. Serbians will be forever tarnished by that act of genocide.

Why should I be marked for something I did not commit  do nor anyone form my family? If you could draw parallels like that than same could be said for both  Croats and Bosnian Muslims, and many other nations including Americans (remember Native Americans eh?), there is a name  behind every crime. Pure ignorance from you.
The same arguement could be used for gun ownership.
Why should law abiding citizens be punished for the actions of others.... ;-()

Is missing the point something Americans are taught at school, or is it genetic?

    Liberty isn't an absolute, i cannot be, i hope you can see that in a few examples i've given. freedom and liberty are virtues in themselves.
So it's really a question of what counts as a legitimate curtailing of freedom. The freedom to carry a weapon verses a statistical increase in the deaths of innocent people. People will die so some can pursue their habit of carrying a gun, that's the real choice.
In my case, it could be both. :))

Your first example fails because my freedom to own a piece of metal doesn't harm anyone.  Your fist hitting my face might cause me some harm. ;-()
Punish the criminals, treat the mentally unstable, and establish a society where people have enough respect for self and others that such crimes become a thing of the past.

I'll take your last point first.
Constructing a society in which people have respect for self and others to the extent that crime doesn't exist is a fantasy. There's never been such a society and there never will be. However, some societies are more violent than others-the US is a violent society-at least in contemporary terms. I'm using violence instead of crime because what counts as criminal in one generation can change ie persecution of witches, homosexuals etc.
Given that human nature and our capacity for violence and aggression is a constant (males always commit more violent crimes than women etc) what can be changed is the environment, and that includes the moral framework individuals find themselves in and access to harmful tools. It makes no sense to undertake a shift in behaviour against violence without an associated shift in the means to do violence. Of course someone could use a bath brush to kill someone, but if the have a rapid fire ammunition, or hand grenades for example, the few who's behaviour cannot be accounted for, even in a relatively low crime rate society like that of Singapore, is at least mitigated in terms of the amount of damage they can do.

Regarding your first point.
Swinging my arm may or may not harm someone, just as my using a hammer may or may not harm anyone, or a gun, or a Kalashnikov rifle, or anything else. But in a society where nearly every adult could legally own a Kalashnikov, i'ld be far more fearful of the consequences of crime than i would be living in one that outlaws all weapons. The arm, hammer, gun, Kalashnikov are all tools, but some tools can do so much damage that you're freedom to won one, makes my existence more suitable to termination.

I've just heard on the news there's been another tragic shooting, unfortunately and with deep sadness that only helps make my point.
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Offline jesse james

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no comment here, this is getting crazy and getting nowhere.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/23/nra-lapierre-hits-talk-shows.html

 I'm happy to be in Canada, to be honest with you  :whistle:, never had a gun, never will, couldn't care less ... why, the heck, ordinary citizens of any country need to have  freaking guns? It causes more problems than solutions. meh, so against it ... whatever guys. yeah, there will be crazy, sick people all around the world, but let's not make it easier for them ... no guns, no rifles, no sh!t ... even people who enjoy hunting innocent animals (Canadians are bad, it's in our culture, whatever) make me so sick. What kinda fun is to go and shoot some pore animals, it should be banned . If you are that bored, go hit your own head with something (use your frying pan) and see how it feels...

this is one of the issues I really fees so strong about.


Well said.
It kind of reinforces my point that the freedom of one group can impact on the freedom of others. The freedom to carry guns means kids will be kept in prisons.
We banned guns in the UK and though we've had some shootings since, nothing on the scale that we had before they were banned, and unfortunately some guns do get here from abroad, though as i say, it's much better. If just one life is saved the whole enterprise is entirely worthy.
I am a lighthouse worn by the weather and the waves
And though I'm empty I still warn the sailors on their way

Offline Alex

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no comment here, this is getting crazy and getting nowhere.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/23/nra-lapierre-hits-talk-shows.html

 I'm happy to be in Canada, to be honest with you  :whistle:, never had a gun, never will, couldn't care less ... why, the heck, ordinary citizens of any country need to have  freaking guns? It causes more problems than solutions. meh, so against it ... whatever guys. yeah, there will be crazy, sick people all around the world, but let's not make it easier for them ... no guns, no rifles, no sh!t ... even people who enjoy hunting innocent animals (Canadians are bad, it's in our culture, whatever) make me so sick. What kinda fun is to go and shoot some pore animals, it should be banned . If you are that bored, go hit your own head with something (use your frying pan) and see how it feels...

this is one of the issues I really fees so strong about.


Well said.
It kind of reinforces my point that the freedom of one group can impact on the freedom of others. The freedom to carry guns means kids will be kept in prisons.
We banned guns in the UK and though we've had some shootings since, nothing on the scale that we had before they were banned, and unfortunately some guns do get here from abroad, though as i say, it's much better. If just one life is saved the whole enterprise is entirely worthy.

really like the last sentence in your post. it is so true. I tend to be so harsh towards Americans, but it is driving me crazy. I might be stupid, but I just don't get it. Shank is talking about their amendment 2 as if it was a Bible or whatever. Americans want freedom, yet they want to control the world, and do whatever they feel like doing. It's like we are the best at everything, no wonder that some other nations despise them (and I'm talking about Europeans here, not some poor world contries). I find it so silly. They dictate what is right and what is wrong (listen I decide for my self what it right and what is wrong)... I mean, sure, let's all get guns and kill one another if we disagree about anything.

how come that these things happen in the States all the time? Name one other country that went through so much sh!t lately? sure, the solution is get armed Police officers at all Americans Schools (give them some rockets, tanks and nukes too), what the heck?

 People, bad things can happen to anybody, it's life. you can walk out tomorrow and get murdered by a some drunk guy ... no guarantees, but if I have to live this life in paranoia and fear, forget it ....




Offline jesse james

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no comment here, this is getting crazy and getting nowhere.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/23/nra-lapierre-hits-talk-shows.html

 I'm happy to be in Canada, to be honest with you  :whistle:, never had a gun, never will, couldn't care less ... why, the heck, ordinary citizens of any country need to have  freaking guns? It causes more problems than solutions. meh, so against it ... whatever guys. yeah, there will be crazy, sick people all around the world, but let's not make it easier for them ... no guns, no rifles, no sh!t ... even people who enjoy hunting innocent animals (Canadians are bad, it's in our culture, whatever) make me so sick. What kinda fun is to go and shoot some pore animals, it should be banned . If you are that bored, go hit your own head with something (use your frying pan) and see how it feels...

this is one of the issues I really fees so strong about.


Well said.
It kind of reinforces my point that the freedom of one group can impact on the freedom of others. The freedom to carry guns means kids will be kept in prisons.
We banned guns in the UK and though we've had some shootings since, nothing on the scale that we had before they were banned, and unfortunately some guns do get here from abroad, though as i say, it's much better. If just one life is saved the whole enterprise is entirely worthy.

really like the last sentence in your post. it is so true. I tend to be so harsh towards Americans, but it is driving me crazy. I might be stupid, but I just don't get it. Shank is talking about their amendment 2 as if it was a Bible or whatever. Americans want freedom, yet they want to control the world, and do whatever they feel like doing. It's like we are the best at everything, no wonder that some other nations despise them (and I'm talking about Europeans here, not some poor world contries). I find it so silly. They dictate what is right and what is wrong (listen I decide for my self what it right and what is wrong)... I mean, sure, let's all get guns and kill one another if we disagree about anything.

how come that these things happen in the States all the time? Name one other country that went through so much sh!t lately? sure, the solution is get armed Police officers at all Americans Schools (give them some rockets, tanks and nukes too), what the heck?

 People, bad things can happen to anybody, it's life. you can walk out tomorrow and get murdered by a some drunk guy ... no guarantees, but if I have to live this life in paranoia and fear, forget it ....


the point about the second amendment is interesting, and i've argued about the dangers of a bill of rights and a constitution on here before. In the UK we have a de facto constitution (The European Convention on Human Rights), but prior to that we had the 'common law' which was basically that anyone can do anything as long as it's not specifically illegal. Now the advantage of this over and above a constitution is that we can take an enlightened democratic view towards anything we wish, including the banning of carrying hand guns. And we did exactly this by changing the law after a specific incident (Dunblane). With a constitution it's very difficult to change things-which is exactly it's point. So in that sense it isn't democratic-because apart from a few amendments it was written in 1787, in a very different world. I think there is a biblical attachment to it by Americans, partly because it acts as a national touchstone in a country that is rootless in the broad historical sense.
Of course many Americans might argue that it protects citizens in a way that our not having one doesn't, but this is historically inaccurate. Both France and the US have undergone violent and turbulent social change and have failed to protect basic 'rights' in a way that the British haven't, without that constitution.  Don't get me wrong, i have plenty criticisms of our democracy, but i think the very fact of the unbridled faith the US have for their constitution has actually hindered the development of enlightened progress somewhat. 
 
 Your point about ' Americans want freedom, yet they want to control the world, and do whatever they feel like doing' is not unconnected to the constitution, in that the urge of the US to promulgate it's ideals and sense of the primacy of it's values were born in the same violent furnace, that brought the constitution ABOUT
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Offline monstertruck

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no comment here, this is getting crazy and getting nowhere.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/23/nra-lapierre-hits-talk-shows.html

 I'm happy to be in Canada, to be honest with you  :whistle:, never had a gun, never will, couldn't care less ... why, the heck, ordinary citizens of any country need to have  freaking guns? It causes more problems than solutions. meh, so against it ... whatever guys. yeah, there will be crazy, sick people all around the world, but let's not make it easier for them ... no guns, no rifles, no sh!t ... even people who enjoy hunting innocent animals (Canadians are bad, it's in our culture, whatever) make me so sick. What kinda fun is to go and shoot some pore animals, it should be banned . If you are that bored, go hit your own head with something (use your frying pan) and see how it feels...

this is one of the issues I really fees so strong about.


Well said.
It kind of reinforces my point that the freedom of one group can impact on the freedom of others. The freedom to carry guns means kids will be kept in prisons.
We banned guns in the UK and though we've had some shootings since, nothing on the scale that we had before they were banned, and unfortunately some guns do get here from abroad, though as i say, it's much better. If just one life is saved the whole enterprise is entirely worthy.

really like the last sentence in your post. it is so true. I tend to be so harsh towards Americans, but it is driving me crazy. I might be stupid, but I just don't get it. Shank is talking about their amendment 2 as if it was a Bible or whatever. Americans want freedom, yet they want to control the world, and do whatever they feel like doing. It's like we are the best at everything, no wonder that some other nations despise them (and I'm talking about Europeans here, not some poor world contries). I find it so silly. They dictate what is right and what is wrong (listen I decide for my self what it right and what is wrong)... I mean, sure, let's all get guns and kill one another if we disagree about anything.

how come that these things happen in the States all the time? Name one other country that went through so much sh!t lately? sure, the solution is get armed Police officers at all Americans Schools (give them some rockets, tanks and nukes too), what the heck?

 People, bad things can happen to anybody, it's life. you can walk out tomorrow and get murdered by a some drunk guy ... no guarantees, but if I have to live this life in paranoia and fear, forget it ....
That's where I happen to disagree with both of you.
The ends do not justify the means.
Infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens in an attempt to mitigate risk to others is wrong.
Punish the criminals.

Merry Christamas! :))
CONK da ball!!!

Offline jesse james

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no comment here, this is getting crazy and getting nowhere.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/23/nra-lapierre-hits-talk-shows.html

 I'm happy to be in Canada, to be honest with you  :whistle:, never had a gun, never will, couldn't care less ... why, the heck, ordinary citizens of any country need to have  freaking guns? It causes more problems than solutions. meh, so against it ... whatever guys. yeah, there will be crazy, sick people all around the world, but let's not make it easier for them ... no guns, no rifles, no sh!t ... even people who enjoy hunting innocent animals (Canadians are bad, it's in our culture, whatever) make me so sick. What kinda fun is to go and shoot some pore animals, it should be banned . If you are that bored, go hit your own head with something (use your frying pan) and see how it feels...

this is one of the issues I really fees so strong about.


Well said.
It kind of reinforces my point that the freedom of one group can impact on the freedom of others. The freedom to carry guns means kids will be kept in prisons.
We banned guns in the UK and though we've had some shootings since, nothing on the scale that we had before they were banned, and unfortunately some guns do get here from abroad, though as i say, it's much better. If just one life is saved the whole enterprise is entirely worthy.

really like the last sentence in your post. it is so true. I tend to be so harsh towards Americans, but it is driving me crazy. I might be stupid, but I just don't get it. Shank is talking about their amendment 2 as if it was a Bible or whatever. Americans want freedom, yet they want to control the world, and do whatever they feel like doing. It's like we are the best at everything, no wonder that some other nations despise them (and I'm talking about Europeans here, not some poor world contries). I find it so silly. They dictate what is right and what is wrong (listen I decide for my self what it right and what is wrong)... I mean, sure, let's all get guns and kill one another if we disagree about anything.

how come that these things happen in the States all the time? Name one other country that went through so much sh!t lately? sure, the solution is get armed Police officers at all Americans Schools (give them some rockets, tanks and nukes too), what the heck?

 People, bad things can happen to anybody, it's life. you can walk out tomorrow and get murdered by a some drunk guy ... no guarantees, but if I have to live this life in paranoia and fear, forget it ....
That's where I happen to disagree with both of you.
The ends do not justify the means.
Infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens in an attempt to mitigate risk to others is wrong.
Punish the criminals.

Merry Christamas! :))


I'm baffled by your response.
Lets peruse one of many examples, the one i've given since that's enshrined as a right, and that's the right to free speech.
Do you accept any limitations on free speech? Would you accept my being free to call for you're killing, or to shout 'fire' in a crowded theater?
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Offline Emma

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Apparently, to an American, carrying a gun is more like making a big fashion statement. In other words, it's "in" - I have a gun; therefore, I am Kool.

Stupid Americans.
You are everything I am not.

Offline monstertruck

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Yeah, that's me, always trying to be 'cool' and impress people like you Emma..... :\

Jesse, you can call for my demise if you like.
If you happen to think that's some sort of crime, perhaps you're not as bright as I thought you were............
CONK da ball!!!

Offline jesse james

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Yeah, that's me, always trying to be 'cool' and impress people like you Emma..... :\

Jesse, you can call for my demise if you like.
If you happen to think that's some sort of crime, perhaps you're not as bright as I thought you were............

Well technically it is a crime, i’d refer you to the ‘The fighting words doctrine’ which is indeed a limitation to freedom of speech. it’s necessary because as anyone who doesn't’ have severe cognitive impairment can appreciate, absolute free speech potentially violates of the pursuit of ‘life and happiness’.  The freedom of ordinary citizens to own and carry landmines would mean (in a staticstical sense) the deniel of life to many, freedom to shout ‘fire’ in a crowded theatre could mean the end of life for those trampled underfoot in the stampede to get out.
  You simply can't have the idea of freedom you're tethered to in a civil society-it's an illusion. You're holding on to it because your society sanctifies it in a way that goes well beyond what's actually there.

If you're ever feeling philosophical i'll let you in on a little secret about the whole concept of freedom-but be warned-it's heavy!
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Offline FedFanForever

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Apparently, to an American, carrying a gun is more like making a big fashion statement. In other words, it's "in" - I have a gun; therefore, I am Kool.

Stupid Americans.

Stupid Brits.
Then we will fight in the shade.