Poll

Is ATP slowly turning into WTA? (aka is tennis becoming one-dimensional?

Yes
6 (60%)
No
4 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?  (Read 5366 times)

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Offline Rafa816

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2013, 09:34:29 PM »
The overall thing I'm getting at is, what really is your problem with these people? Rafa in particular. He has the ability to crush shots. He can come up to the net every now and then to finish off a point quickly. He's improved his serve so he can get more aces and service winners. He's beaten many people with 6-0, 6-1, and 6-2 sets, even on hard courts. But you act like it's a bad thing that he has the stamina to be able to play for hours. Yeah, he can push back shots and defend all day and just break down the opponent until they make a ton of unforced errors because they're tired. But he doesn't do that anymore. He hits winners, aces, etc. Will he let a ball go when he can get it? Heck no. Why should he? But I really don't understand what's wrong with that.

Ferrer, Simon, and Monfils I can understand. They are boring to watch for me as well. Especially Simon.

Rafa plays efficient tennis in early rounds. But he plays what many would call "gladiator/last man standing" tennis and what I would call passive tennis in the crunch of a tournament. Murray is worse because he has no desire at all to end a point. If Rafa played efficient tennis in the crunch, I'd have a completely different opinion. But he doesn't. He takes his foot off the throttle and plays a game of attrition. Fortunately, Federer won't engage him in this way, but unfortunately Murray (no options) and Djokovic (extremely versatile) will.

I've been critical of Federer since he was in his Mama's womb, but I have newfound respect for him for continuing to play his game. #1 in the world in 2012 at age 31...hard to argue with that.

I would disagree. Look at the AO 2012 final for example. He was playing very offensive tennis for most of the match. Even when he went down 0-40 in the fourth set on his serve, all three of those break points, he murdered the ball. He did the same in the 2010 US Open. He played very aggressive tennis throughout, even in the semis and the finals. He maybe plays more passive tennis in the finals of clay tourneys, but that's because it's his best way to win. It's how he crushes people in short amounts of time.

Well Rafito, you are one cool dude and my all time favorite Rafa fan for you objectiveness and level headedness. I won't go back and watch past matches, I did enough railing through them at the time. And as for clay, he plays efficient tennis because he doesn't have to tweak his game for one reason or another like he does on hardcourts. To his credit, Rafa is forever tweaking his game on hardcourts. But that's a byproduct of inefficiency. I'll have nothing but praise for Rafa on clay as he gets through his matches quickly.

We'll have to revisit this debate when the tour returns to NA hardcourts (maybe grass(?)). So don't go nowhere, my friend, I'm looking forward to hammering this out with you. I think we'll both benefit from it.

And Alex, you're my all time favorite Nole fan...by default, of course  ;-()

Sounds good  :)

Rafa is the FIRST to qualify for WTF this year! :D

Offline falcon

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2013, 10:24:01 PM »
The overall thing I'm getting at is, what really is your problem with these people? Rafa in particular. He has the ability to crush shots. He can come up to the net every now and then to finish off a point quickly. He's improved his serve so he can get more aces and service winners. He's beaten many people with 6-0, 6-1, and 6-2 sets, even on hard courts. But you act like it's a bad thing that he has the stamina to be able to play for hours. Yeah, he can push back shots and defend all day and just break down the opponent until they make a ton of unforced errors because they're tired. But he doesn't do that anymore. He hits winners, aces, etc. Will he let a ball go when he can get it? Heck no. Why should he? But I really don't understand what's wrong with that.

Ferrer, Simon, and Monfils I can understand. They are boring to watch for me as well. Especially Simon.

Rafa plays efficient tennis in early rounds. But he plays what many would call "gladiator/last man standing" tennis and what I would call passive tennis in the crunch of a tournament. Murray is worse because he has no desire at all to end a point. If Rafa played efficient tennis in the crunch, I'd have a completely different opinion. But he doesn't. He takes his foot off the throttle and plays a game of attrition. Fortunately, Federer won't engage him in this way, but unfortunately Murray (no options) and Djokovic (extremely versatile) will.

I've been critical of Federer since he was in his Mama's womb, but I have newfound respect for him for continuing to play his game. #1 in the world in 2012 at age 31...hard to argue with that.

I would disagree. Look at the AO 2012 final for example. He was playing very offensive tennis for most of the match. Even when he went down 0-40 in the fourth set on his serve, all three of those break points, he murdered the ball. He did the same in the 2010 US Open. He played very aggressive tennis throughout, even in the semis and the finals. He maybe plays more passive tennis in the finals of clay tourneys, but that's because it's his best way to win. It's how he crushes people in short amounts of time.

Well Rafito, you are one cool dude and my all time favorite Rafa fan for you objectiveness and level headedness. I won't go back and watch past matches, I did enough railing through them at the time. And as for clay, he plays efficient tennis because he doesn't have to tweak his game for one reason or another like he does on hardcourts. To his credit, Rafa is forever tweaking his game on hardcourts. But that's a byproduct of inefficiency. I'll have nothing but praise for Rafa on clay as he gets through his matches quickly.

We'll have to revisit this debate when the tour returns to NA hardcourts (maybe grass(?)). So don't go nowhere, my friend, I'm looking forward to hammering this out with you. I think we'll both benefit from it.

And Alex, you're my all time favorite Nole fan...by default, of course  ;-()

Babbs you've dumped me?  :)~


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Online Babblelot

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2013, 10:46:06 PM »
:paper bag:

Lol! Nothing but :wub: for you, falconi!!

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Offline falcon

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2013, 11:06:08 AM »
:paper bag:

Lol! Nothing but :wub: for you, falconi!!

Aww  :kisses:   Did I ever tell you that you remind me of Jack Nicholson in As good as it gets?


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Online Babblelot

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2013, 12:31:57 PM »
:paper bag:

Lol! Nothing but :wub: for you, falconi!!

Aww  :kisses:   Did I ever tell you that you remind me of Jack Nicholson in As good as it gets?

Because of what I post here or on FB?  :rofl_2: :rofl_2:
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Offline falcon

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2013, 01:17:49 PM »
:paper bag:

Lol! Nothing but :wub: for you, falconi!!

Aww  :kisses:   Did I ever tell you that you remind me of Jack Nicholson in As good as it gets?

Because of what I post here or on FB?  :rofl_2: :rofl_2:

 :rofl_2: Yeah you curse everything and everyone and yet you are sweet  :))


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Offline Dallas

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2013, 08:47:54 PM »
OK... I guess I'll have to start pulling for Novak to lose more so Alex can be for him again. :rofl_2:


Online Alex

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2013, 10:07:17 PM »
OK... I guess I'll have to start pulling for Novak to lose more so Alex can be for him again. :rofl_2:
difficult times. I support Fed only nowadays. when I have more time I'll change my avi.  :)~
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 02:30:36 PM by Alex »

Offline mav140

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #88 on: April 05, 2013, 02:06:54 AM »
Great topic!!! My opinion lies on how boring is the game today.. I was watching a WTA match the other day and Sharapova was playing Williams in the final, she had several points where Sharapova was moving Serena all over the court (specially in the first set) and she never came into the net.. had Serena 20 feet away and still didn't come up to the net...


That's what's happening with Men.  I was watching several matches at Miami MS and none of them came into the net even when the other guy was just grinding and running like crazy 20 feet behind the baseline and the point kept going for 30-35 rally shots... I mean, in one match you want to watch a very diverse match, men studying their rival and having variety in their game... Unfortunately that is not the case.. If you see 5 to 10  35-40 rally shot points in a 5 set format match is awesome.. But it is disappointing having 30 to 40 35-40 rally shot points in a best of 3 set match.. and that is what we are getting... it's all about endurance now, it's all about lobing the ball and doing some massive top spin to ensure the ball won't go out instead of going for the winner, it's all about trying so hard for the other guy to miss the ball instead of trying to WIN the point... For me, it is really disappointing..


But the problem is that, players are not the only ones to be blamed for this type of play now.... Slowing the courts, adapting the surface to certain players, changing the balls and then players not wanting to take risks... it is a combination of everything, but still very disappointing for tennis fans over 30 years old who were able to watch live Sampras, Agassi even Lendl, Edberg, Becker. I don't know if it's going to change any time soon.. But for now, and as a tennis fan I find it boring when professional athletes don't want to "WIN" matches, they rather expect the other to "lose" the match.


That's the way I see it... Tennis was and has always been a very complete sport.. a combination on Mental Strength, Endurance, Talent, Research and strength, where has this sport gone???
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 02:08:52 AM by mav140 »

Online Babblelot

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #89 on: April 05, 2013, 10:37:12 AM »
^^^This information goes into the bubble as bubble cud, swirls around and around in bubble brains, and comes out in bubble droppings as:

So you want S&V, 3 shot points?! That's what you want then? That's sooooo boring! S&V-3 shot rallies is dead and there's no going back!!!!

:head-bash: :bang-head:








« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 06:59:52 PM by Babblelot »
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Offline falcon

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #90 on: April 05, 2013, 10:45:13 AM »
People, this is not about serve and volley at all...its about variety generated from the back of the court.


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Online Babblelot

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #91 on: April 05, 2013, 10:54:46 AM »
People, this is not about serve and volley at all...its about variety generated from the back of the court.


So, what you're saying is that you want S&V, 3 shot points?! That's what you want then, huh? That's sooooo boring! S&V-3 shot rallies is dead and there's no going back!!!!






« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 07:00:09 PM by Babblelot »
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Online Alex

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #92 on: April 05, 2013, 11:23:21 AM »
guys I'm in, speed up some courts etc. I still think you'll have the same top 4 guys winning everything. I think I'm getting depressed  :). could anybody help?

I'm going to sleep and wake up in 10 years. Let me know what's happening in tennis  :gleam:

Offline falcon

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #93 on: April 05, 2013, 11:24:11 AM »
People, this is not about serve and volley at all...its about variety generated from the back of the court.

So, what you're saying is that you want S&V, 3 shot points?! That's what you want then, huh? That's sooooo boring! S&V-3 shot rallies is dead and there's no going back!!!!

Huh? Why did you quote me? I was not even referring to what I want. people are mistaking variety for SnV and I am correcting them. Stupid babbsy  :)~


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Offline falcon

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #94 on: April 05, 2013, 11:27:20 AM »
guys I'm in, speed up some courts etc. I still think you'll have the same top 4 guys winning everything. I think I'm getting depressed  :). could anybody help?

I'm going to sleep and wake up in 10 years. Let me know what's happening in tennis  :gleam:

Hmm go pamper yourself...eat some dark chocolate or just get drunk  :))


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Online Alex

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #95 on: April 05, 2013, 11:48:38 AM »
guys I'm in, speed up some courts etc. I still think you'll have the same top 4 guys winning everything. I think I'm getting depressed  :). could anybody help?

I'm going to sleep and wake up in 10 years. Let me know what's happening in tennis  :gleam:

Hmm go pamper yourself...eat some dark chocolate or just get drunk  :))
hm, good idea. I don't eat sugar at all because I like my 6pack tummy  :innocent:. Drinking, well ... it could do a trick fore a few hours. Where is General Herc btw?

no, but seriously, I still see same players winning everything left and right. Rafa is THE CLAY GOD, but he won Dubai which is the fastest HC we have right now.  People were saying Djokovic couldn't play on grass, blah, blah, and then bang he won Wimbledon.

Fed is old, he can't win anything and then bang again he wins Wimbeldon.

Murray will never win a slam (people were saying) and then bang, he wins the USO. Then they say 'well it was windy', I still laugh about that one as if it wasn't windy for Djokovic.

my point is that the top 4 are just too good. change the courts, whatever ... they will keep winning.

Offline falcon

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #96 on: April 05, 2013, 11:53:02 AM »
guys I'm in, speed up some courts etc. I still think you'll have the same top 4 guys winning everything. I think I'm getting depressed  :). could anybody help?

I'm going to sleep and wake up in 10 years. Let me know what's happening in tennis  :gleam:

Hmm go pamper yourself...eat some dark chocolate or just get drunk  :))
hm, good idea. I don't eat sugar at all because I like my 6pack tummy  :innocent:. Drinking, well ... it could do a trick fore a few hours. Where is General Herc btw?

no, but seriously, I still see same players winning everything left and right. Rafa is THE CLAY GOD, but he won Dubai which is the fastest HC we have right now.  People were saying Djokovic couldn't play on grass, blah, blah, and then bang he won Wimbledon.

Fed is old, he can't win anything and then bang again he wins Wimbeldon.

Murray will never win a slam (people were saying) and then bang, he wins the USO. Then they say 'well it was windy', I still laugh about that one as if it wasn't windy for Djokovic.

my point is that the top 4 are just too good. change the courts, whatever ... they will keep winning.

I agree abt the last part. These 4 are a cut above the rest of the tour.


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Offline mav140

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #97 on: April 05, 2013, 12:08:59 PM »
guys I'm in, speed up some courts etc. I still think you'll have the same top 4 guys winning everything. I think I'm getting depressed  :). could anybody help?

I'm going to sleep and wake up in 10 years. Let me know what's happening in tennis  :gleam:

Hmm go pamper yourself...eat some dark chocolate or just get drunk  :))
hm, good idea. I don't eat sugar at all because I like my 6pack tummy  :innocent:. Drinking, well ... it could do a trick fore a few hours. Where is General Herc btw?

no, but seriously, I still see same players winning everything left and right. Rafa is THE CLAY GOD, but he won Dubai which is the fastest HC we have right now.  People were saying Djokovic couldn't play on grass, blah, blah, and then bang he won Wimbledon.

Fed is old, he can't win anything and then bang again he wins Wimbeldon.

Murray will never win a slam (people were saying) and then bang, he wins the USO. Then they say 'well it was windy', I still laugh about that one as if it wasn't windy for Djokovic.

my point is that the top 4 are just too good. change the courts, whatever ... they will keep winning.

Alex,

At least from my part, this got nothing to do with the top 4. I have little doubt that even with faster surfaces the current top 4 would still lead the field. They are just too good for anyone at the moment. But it's not about having some other players gunning for titles, I know the top 4 would still be challenging for major tournaments.

ALL I WANT IS MORE VARIETY, MORE TALENT-WISE TENNIS, more TENNIS so to speak... Just because the top 4 would lead the field regardless of the condition, surface, balls, whatever, doesn't mean the current surfaces or the way the game is played is better. Actually, it's even boring to see a grinding fest our there!! I don't like that!! Give me some wit, some talent, some speed, some variety, even some S&V and I am good... But right now, it's not about that, it's just about what I wrote before!

Online Alex

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #98 on: April 05, 2013, 12:21:52 PM »
Mav, I agree with you. speed up the courts, bring old grass at Wimbledon (gosh, that would be so much  fun) ... I just stated the obvious facts that the top guys are too good. gee, I'm a genius I guess  ..-)

as I said, I'm all in. It will probably benefit some players.

Offline FreakyGOAT > CD

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #99 on: April 05, 2013, 01:31:54 PM »
my point is that the top 4 are just too good. change the courts, whatever ... they will keep winning.

I couldn't disagree more...

Remember blue clay? That stuff was fast, and yet Djokovic lost to Tipsy and Nadal lost to Verdasco.

Djokovic and Nadal are not as good on fast surfaces, and it's been proven time and time again.

The only reason Djokovic won Wimbledon was because it got slowed down, and same for Nadal. When an actually fast surface came in, everything went apes**t  :rofl_2:

Ya know, I wrote a whole paper on surface homogenization for school. I'm not sure what I got, but that gives me some decent credibility  :cool:
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