Poll

Is ATP slowly turning into WTA? (aka is tennis becoming one-dimensional?

Yes
6 (60%)
No
4 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 10

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Offline Alex

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #100 on: April 05, 2013, 06:26:46 PM »
my point is that the top 4 are just too good. change the courts, whatever ... they will keep winning.

I couldn't disagree more...

Remember blue clay? That stuff was fast, and yet Djokovic lost to Tipsy and Nadal lost to Verdasco.

Djokovic and Nadal are not as good on fast surfaces, and it's been proven time and time again.

The only reason Djokovic won Wimbledon was because it got slowed down, and same for Nadal. When an actually fast surface came in, everything went apes**t  :rofl_2:

Ya know, I wrote a whole paper on surface homogenization for school. I'm not sure what I got, but that gives me some decent credibility  :cool:
nah, blue clay was an anomaly and completely irrelevant when it comes to the big picture. Nole and Rafa weren't able to slide and move as they usually do. Many other players complained about that surface.. It's just when  2 big divas said they wouldn't play on that surface any more Madrid's directors decided to go back to normal clay.

My biggest concern is players safety and health. I've never heard Djokovic complaining about any type of courts before that Madrid fiasco.

as I said, speed up the courts, but don't do stupid experiments like blue clay. shall we have blue grass at Wimbledon? Clay is clay. it's red and that's it.

Online Babblelot

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #101 on: April 05, 2013, 06:39:38 PM »
People, this is not about serve and volley at all...its about variety generated from the back of the court.


So, what you're saying is that you want S&V, 3 shot points?! That's what you want then, huh? That's sooooo boring! S&V-3 shot rallies is dead and there's no going back!!!!


Huh? Why did you quote me? I was not even referring to what I want. people are mistaking variety for SnV and I am correcting them. Stupid babbsy  :)~


So, let me get this straight generalissimo falcon. What you are saying right here is that you want tennis to return to the forlorn years of S&V, 3 shot points?! That's what you really want; turn back the clocks! That's sooooo boring! S&V-3 shot rallies is dead, generalissimo, and there's no going back now!!!! 1000 mph baby!!! 1000 mph!!![/quote]







« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 07:00:57 PM by Babblelot »
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Offline FreakyGOAT > CD

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Re: Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #102 on: April 05, 2013, 07:30:59 PM »
nah, blue clay was an anomaly and completely irrelevant when it comes to the big picture. Nole and Rafa weren't able to slide and move as they usually do. Many other players complained about that surface.. It's just when  2 big divas said they wouldn't play on that surface any more Madrid's directors decided to go back to normal clay.

My biggest concern is players safety and health. I've never heard Djokovic complaining about any type of courts before that Madrid fiasco.

as I said, speed up the courts, but don't do stupid experiments like blue clay. shall we have blue grass at Wimbledon? Clay is clay. it's red and that's it.

:rofl_2: I never heard any other player complain about it, any sources?

Also, they couldn't move around as much because IT WAS FASTER! They couldn't get to every single ball like they usually did because the ball went too fast for them to play their defensive games.

I actually heard it was slippery, so it meant easier to slide. What's the health risk with slipping on clay anyway? Being an American who almost always plays on HC, I've slipped on clay a bunch of times. It's not bad at all... For one, there's a greater risk if you slip on a HC, and grass is slippery as fuk too...
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Online Babblelot

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #103 on: April 05, 2013, 08:06:17 PM »
I posted this in another thread about the blue clay. Yes, other players complained.

Quote
I'm not sure what the color had to do with it, either, if anything. The real problem was that they laid the courts too late, so they never did settle. That meant the courts became slippery because the top layer came off too easily. Also, the lower layers became exposed. Typically, when a court dries, you water then drag them during a changeover. The problem was, couldn't do that because you'd take the top layer right off when you dragged them. It was the dry courts that made them slippery.

Now, the only question in my mind is, was it something about the way the clay was treated during the dying process that made them glob up after they were watered. That may have been the case.

This is all stuff I could see from my seat and hear from the players' complaints--especially Almagro--even though I don't speak any Spanish! He pretty much took the chair on a  :ranting:  tour of the court more than once!

« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 08:07:01 PM by Babblelot »
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Offline Rafa816

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #104 on: April 05, 2013, 08:49:31 PM »
People, this is not about serve and volley at all...its about variety generated from the back of the court.


So, what you're saying is that you want S&V, 3 shot points?! That's what you want then, huh? That's sooooo boring! S&V-3 shot rallies is dead and there's no going back!!!!


Huh? Why did you quote me? I was not even referring to what I want. people are mistaking variety for SnV and I am correcting them. Stupid babbsy  :)~


So, let me get this straight generalissimo falcon. What you are saying right here is that you want tennis to return to the forlorn years of S&V, 3 shot points?! That's what you really want; turn back the clocks! That's sooooo boring! S&V-3 shot rallies is dead, generalissimo, and there's no going back now!!!! 1000 mph baby!!! 1000 mph!!!
[/size][/b]








[/quote]

 :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :rofl_2:

Rafa is the FIRST to qualify for WTF this year! :D

Offline Alex

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Re: Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #105 on: April 05, 2013, 08:57:49 PM »
nah, blue clay was an anomaly and completely irrelevant when it comes to the big picture. Nole and Rafa weren't able to slide and move as they usually do. Many other players complained about that surface.. It's just when  2 big divas said they wouldn't play on that surface any more Madrid's directors decided to go back to normal clay.

My biggest concern is players safety and health. I've never heard Djokovic complaining about any type of courts before that Madrid fiasco.

as I said, speed up the courts, but don't do stupid experiments like blue clay. shall we have blue grass at Wimbledon? Clay is clay. it's red and that's it.

:rofl_2: I never heard any other player complain about it, any sources?

Also, they couldn't move around as much because IT WAS FASTER! They couldn't get to every single ball like they usually did because the ball went too fast for them to play their defensive games.

I actually heard it was slippery, so it meant easier to slide. What's the health risk with slipping on clay anyway? Being an American who almost always plays on HC, I've slipped on clay a bunch of times. It's not bad at all... For one, there's a greater risk if you slip on a HC, and grass is slippery as fuk too...
freaky, If I wasn't so tired I could google it  for you. I'm not defending either Nole or Nadal. the courts were beyond horrible and trust me all other players complained about it too. If you insist I'll find you the source but it doesn't really matter. The thing is when Nole or Nadal speak, everyone listens, when some guys who are ranked #30/50/100 nobody gives a sh!t.
cheers bro, and don't fight with me or I'm going to smack ya    :)). Emma, or I mean Alex is always right  :innocent:

Offline FreakyGOAT > CD

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #106 on: April 05, 2013, 10:02:53 PM »
I posted this in another thread about the blue clay. Yes, other players complained.

Still not many... A lot more players were impartial than against it.

freaky, If I wasn't so tired I could google it  for you. I'm not defending either Nole or Nadal. the courts were beyond horrible and trust me all other players complained about it too. If you insist I'll find you the source but it doesn't really matter. The thing is when Nole or Nadal speak, everyone listens, when some guys who are ranked #30/50/100 nobody gives a sh!t.
cheers bro, and don't fight with me or I'm going to smack ya    :)). Emma, or I mean Alex is always right  :innocent:

The courts weren't beyond horrible... Blue clay caused how many injuries???

None.

Meanwhile you have Sao Paulo with the f**king baseline coming off and Ramirez Hidalgo tripping over it and getting injured  :rofl_2: Now that's a major issue.

Also MC last year had the same exact spot injure Benneteau AND Monaco. But no, brown clay is perfect....  ..-)
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Offline Swish

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #107 on: April 05, 2013, 10:25:22 PM »
Fed handled the blue clay fine.
 
The grinders complained because you can't just run to the ball too fast or you'll slip.
This takes away their retrieving ability which is a big asset.
 
I didn't see anything dangerous about the surface though.  :dunno:

Online Babblelot

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2013, 10:26:43 PM »

Still not many... A lot more players were impartial than against it.


OK
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #109 on: April 06, 2013, 05:37:10 AM »
article by Simon Reed  uk.eurosport

"Is elite tennis now just a case of last man standing?

Tennis has become steadily more gladiatorial and it is losing a lot of quality because of the ‘last man standing’ nature of the matches at the highest level.

Many of the ATP finals are about one player outlasting another, and the concept of pure tennis does not come into it, sadly. It is a great shame that players have to concentrate all of their efforts on simply surviving physically...... "


more at

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/simon-reed/top-level-tennis-now-just-case-last-man-143403118.html
Now take a look at member sigs...... :whistle:
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #110 on: April 06, 2013, 05:39:33 AM »
Am just not sure what you guys want to see any more. They call top players grinders, pushers, whatever. so my question to you is, would you like to see S&V again, short points etc. do you want long rallies? Do you want to see points lasting only, let's say 10 shots?

You want faster courts and this and that. you want slower balls. More variety. You are spoiled too much. I was just arguing about this on MTF.

Could someone explain to me what kind of tennis we actually need nowadays? Everyone is complaining so much. OK, speed up the courts, bring the old grass at W and you'll still see the same top guys winning left and right. it's because they are that good.
You obviously know that these variables were changed in an attempt to slow the game down.  Witness the result.  Less variety, marathon rallies/matches.  Boring to some, fascinating to others.

For those of you that only want to see tennis predicated on superior  groundstrokes and players that move well East to West now is your time.  The rest of us would like to see a game that involves players with a variety of skills and the ability to utilize them anywhere on the court.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 05:52:51 AM by monstertruck »
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #111 on: April 06, 2013, 05:40:55 AM »
The reason you guys have so much trouble trying to understand what I have to say is you don't read what I have to say. Lol

Where have I mentioned S&V while railing against 5-6 hour matches? Jumping to extremes makes you guys look disingenuous at best, but mostly plain stupid.

I can write the same things another 5,6,10 times and you still won't understand. I had to go elsewhere to find people who can comprehend and appreciate what I have to say.
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #112 on: April 06, 2013, 05:47:01 AM »
:paper bag:

Lol! Nothing but :wub: for you, falconi!!

Aww  :kisses:   Did I ever tell you that you remind me of Jack Nicholson in As good as it gets?
You make him 'want to be a better man' Falc. :rofl_2:
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Offline Lugburz

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #113 on: April 06, 2013, 07:29:05 AM »
You know where this thread is going to when Babbs started acting sarcastically  :rofl_2:
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Offline Alex

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #114 on: April 06, 2013, 02:03:54 PM »
Am just not sure what you guys want to see any more. They call top players grinders, pushers, whatever. so my question to you is, would you like to see S&V again, short points etc. do you want long rallies? Do you want to see points lasting only, let's say 10 shots?

You want faster courts and this and that. you want slower balls. More variety. You are spoiled too much. I was just arguing about this on MTF.

Could someone explain to me what kind of tennis we actually need nowadays? Everyone is complaining so much. OK, speed up the courts, bring the old grass at W and you'll still see the same top guys winning left and right. it's because they are that good.
You obviously know that these variables were changed in an attempt to slow the game down.  Witness the result.  Less variety, marathon rallies/matches.  Boring to some, fascinating to others.

For those of you that only want to see tennis predicated on superior  groundstrokes and players that move well East to West now is your time.  The rest of us would like to see a game that involves players with a variety of skills and the ability to utilize them anywhere on the court.
MT, my point is that everyone wants something different. this issue is all over tennis boards. Yes, I'd like to see more variety too. The problem is it's not happening.

I remember watching tennis as a kid and reading newspapers at that time (no internet). Everyone at that time complained about points being so short. It was like, serve, ace ... run to the net, S&V. done. Sampras, Ivanisevic etc. I'm sure you know the way they played.

Nowadays, we have Djokovic and Nadal playing freaking 6 hours matches. Even at Madrid a couple of years ago, best of 3, they managed to play a 4hour match and that was on clay.

IMHO, it's all based on profits. I'm not even talking about masters or smaller tournaments. People want to watch top 4 divas at slams giving them some amazing drama. The longer the better.

Nadal was  gone for almost 8 months, Fed has some back problems, Murray had a major wrist injury, DP too. Djokovic somehow, expect for his allergies and gluten intolerance, has been able to stay injury free. however, every time I see Novak sliding on HC I feel like having a heart attack. what is this man made of?

I won't even talk about lower ranked players. Only tennis fans know about them. I actually believe than more variety would benefit lower ranked players more than Djokovic/Fed/Nadal. Change courts any way you want you'd see these top guys winning everything because they are that good IMO.

Nadal won the USO, fast HC, his weakest surface, serving out of his mind (like being possessed). Djokovic won Wimbledon, grass, his weakest surface. Somehow they manage to find the way to win, no matter what conditions are.

Offline August

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #115 on: April 06, 2013, 02:55:42 PM »
I'm afraid surfaces will become more and more homogenized. Same guys doing well on all surfaces is good for the business. But at least there would be a chance to affect to the surface speed. Current average-paced court is slow, favouring defensive players over offensive. I don't find that fair for the offensive-minded players. Yeah, they wanted to remove acefests, but I think six-hour five-setters and four-hour three-setters are just too long. If the surfaces need to be homogenized, then have them even a bit faster.

I believe the future player type will be a grinding ballbasher. On fast old-school surfaces, an offensive player didn't need to be a ballbasher, he could hit through with less power. But to hit through on these slow courts, you need to have very powerful shots. And even then you're likely to get outgrinded by a good defensive player. So next we'll have a grinding ballbasher. If I could select the homogenized surface retaining most of the nature of tennis, I'd select a low-bouncing medium-paced or medium-slow court. Low bounce requires more skill and makes powerful shots more difficult to hit favouring skill over strength, ballbashers often prefer a high-bouncing surface. Low bounce also means shorter rection time making court effectively faster, that's why it would be medium-paced even if it were a bit slow.

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Offline Alex

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #116 on: April 06, 2013, 03:24:37 PM »
btw August, I love your avi. Benny Hill just brings so many good memories. I love him dearly  :)). I think I'm going to order a set of DVDs with his shows. I still think Brits, for one or another reason, have the best sense of humor. Monty Phyton still brings tears to my eyes, the best show ever. Also, another one that I love is with that 2 crazy drunk women ... yeah, it's 'Absolutely fabulous', too good  :)

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Re: Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #117 on: April 06, 2013, 04:12:38 PM »
I'm afraid surfaces will become more and more homogenized. Same guys doing well on all surfaces is good for the business. But at least there would be a chance to affect to the surface speed. Current average-paced court is slow, favouring defensive players over offensive. I don't find that fair for the offensive-minded players. Yeah, they wanted to remove acefests, but I think six-hour five-setters and four-hour three-setters are just too long. If the surfaces need to be homogenized, then have them even a bit faster.

I believe the future player type will be a grinding ballbasher. On fast old-school surfaces, an offensive player didn't need to be a ballbasher, he could hit through with less power. But to hit through on these slow courts, you need to have very powerful shots. And even then you're likely to get outgrinded by a good defensive player. So next we'll have a grinding ballbasher. If I could select the homogenized surface retaining most of the nature of tennis, I'd select a low-bouncing medium-paced or medium-slow court. Low bounce requires more skill and makes powerful shots more difficult to hit favouring skill over strength, ballbashers often prefer a high-bouncing surface. Low bounce also means shorter rection time making court effectively faster, that's why it would be medium-paced even if it were a bit slow.

I don't. Exclude Rafa, Murray,  Ferrer, Simon, and Monfils from the field and no one plays this way. Best not to make projections based on extremes.
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Offline August

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Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #118 on: April 06, 2013, 04:35:19 PM »
btw August, I love your avi. Benny Hill just brings so many good memories. I love him dearly  :)). I think I'm going to order a set of DVDs with his shows. I still think Brits, for one or another reason, have the best sense of humor. Monty Phyton still brings tears to my eyes, the best show ever. Also, another one that I love is with that 2 crazy drunk women ... yeah, it's 'Absolutely fabulous', too good  :)

British humour really is great, Benny Hill is one of my favourite shows.

I'm afraid surfaces will become more and more homogenized. Same guys doing well on all surfaces is good for the business. But at least there would be a chance to affect to the surface speed. Current average-paced court is slow, favouring defensive players over offensive. I don't find that fair for the offensive-minded players. Yeah, they wanted to remove acefests, but I think six-hour five-setters and four-hour three-setters are just too long. If the surfaces need to be homogenized, then have them even a bit faster.

I believe the future player type will be a grinding ballbasher. On fast old-school surfaces, an offensive player didn't need to be a ballbasher, he could hit through with less power. But to hit through on these slow courts, you need to have very powerful shots. And even then you're likely to get outgrinded by a good defensive player. So next we'll have a grinding ballbasher. If I could select the homogenized surface retaining most of the nature of tennis, I'd select a low-bouncing medium-paced or medium-slow court. Low bounce requires more skill and makes powerful shots more difficult to hit favouring skill over strength, ballbashers often prefer a high-bouncing surface. Low bounce also means shorter rection time making court effectively faster, that's why it would be medium-paced even if it were a bit slow.

I don't. Exclude Rafa, Murray,  Ferrer, Simon, and Monfils from the field and no one plays this way. Best not to make projections based on extremes.

You just mentioned 60% of World top 5. Yeah, there are still many offensive players but it courts remain slow, I'm afraid the number of defensive players gets bigger and bigger. It's better to be a defensive player, we've seen it's mostly defensive players who are successful nowadays.

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Online Babblelot

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Re: Re: Is ATP slowly turning into WTA?
« Reply #119 on: April 06, 2013, 05:24:11 PM »
btw August, I love your avi. Benny Hill just brings so many good memories. I love him dearly  :)). I think I'm going to order a set of DVDs with his shows. I still think Brits, for one or another reason, have the best sense of humor. Monty Phyton still brings tears to my eyes, the best show ever. Also, another one that I love is with that 2 crazy drunk women ... yeah, it's 'Absolutely fabulous', too good  :)

British humour really is great, Benny Hill is one of my favourite shows.

I'm afraid surfaces will become more and more homogenized. Same guys doing well on all surfaces is good for the business. But at least there would be a chance to affect to the surface speed. Current average-paced court is slow, favouring defensive players over offensive. I don't find that fair for the offensive-minded players. Yeah, they wanted to remove acefests, but I think six-hour five-setters and four-hour three-setters are just too long. If the surfaces need to be homogenized, then have them even a bit faster.

I believe the future player type will be a grinding ballbasher. On fast old-school surfaces, an offensive player didn't need to be a ballbasher, he could hit through with less power. But to hit through on these slow courts, you need to have very powerful shots. And even then you're likely to get outgrinded by a good defensive player. So next we'll have a grinding ballbasher. If I could select the homogenized surface retaining most of the nature of tennis, I'd select a low-bouncing medium-paced or medium-slow court. Low bounce requires more skill and makes powerful shots more difficult to hit favouring skill over strength, ballbashers often prefer a high-bouncing surface. Low bounce also means shorter rection time making court effectively faster, that's why it would be medium-paced even if it were a bit slow.

I don't. Exclude Rafa, Murray,  Ferrer, Simon, and Monfils from the field and no one plays this way. Best not to make projections based on extremes.

You just mentioned 60% of World top 5. Yeah, there are still many offensive players but it courts remain slow, I'm afraid the number of defensive players gets bigger and bigger. It's better to be a defensive player, we've seen it's mostly defensive players who are successful nowadays.

No, I implied that 70% of the top 10 doesn't play this way. Now I'm saying that 70% of the top 10 doesn't play this way.
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