Author Topic: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)  (Read 6685 times)

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Offline puppotennis

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2013, 08:48:42 AM »
Slasher
Thanks for the reply.
I'll ask for the bonus Vilas, to see if he remembers.
I sent another post about his research.
I see the points that are the GRAND PRIX, no ATP ranking points. Careful with that. The Grand Prix were different from ATP.
If you contact me by email, I can send all official points of Grand Prix until 1977.
But that really worth to reset the rankings, are the ATP points.
I can send you email also the example of those points.
I hope you understand my bad English! Eduardo.

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2013, 06:53:06 AM »
The first thing I notice is the fact that, in 1973, ATP points could be non-integers. That's so bizarre and makes this more difficult to calculate. Definitely sure that 1973 is apart from 1974-1975, only because of the huge difference between point totals.

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2013, 08:08:37 AM »
Another difficult task here is determining which tournaments counted and which not during the year. If I take, say, Nastase's 1973, I count more than 28 tournaments, yet only 23 of these tournaments formed the count which was used in his average.  It's obvious that everything after Bournemouth and that (17 trns) counted, but which are the other 6? Again, all that is in April seems sanctioned by the ITF, so 4 more tournaments to count. That leaves 2 more. I see Omaha is sanctioned too, and he didn't participate in AO. So, which is the last tournament? I can't figure it out.

Offline JonG

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2013, 11:37:48 AM »
Another difficult task here is determining which tournaments counted and which not during the year. If I take, say, Nastase's 1973, I count more than 28 tournaments, yet only 23 of these tournaments formed the count which was used in his average.  It's obvious that everything after Bournemouth and that (17 trns) counted, but which are the other 6? Again, all that is in April seems sanctioned by the ITF, so 4 more tournaments to count. That leaves 2 more. I see Omaha is sanctioned too, and he didn't participate in AO. So, which is the last tournament? I can't figure it out.

Connors counts 17 ATP, 16 Grand Prix.

Orantes counts 24 ATP, 17 Grand Prix.

My guess would that the Rothmans Spring Mediterranean circuit counts for the ATP list, but the USLTA Indoor Winter Circuit does not.

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2013, 12:20:25 PM »
My guess would that the Rothmans Spring Mediterranean circuit counts for the ATP list, but the USLTA Indoor Winter Circuit does not.

And can we pinpoint the tournaments that were part of the USLTA Indoor Winter Circuit? It's obvious that not everything between January and April was, otherwise Nastase would have had 21, not 23 at 1973 YE... :)

For instance, I think Calgary, Canada could have been counted by the ATP, so that would leave Omaha to be counted. Was Omaha part of the IWC? Or was Salisbury the counted one (US National Indoor)?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 12:40:38 PM by Slasher1985 »

Offline JonG

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2013, 12:49:43 PM »
And can we pinpoint the tournaments that were part of the USLTA Indoor Winter Circuit?

Baltimore
Birmingham
Roanoke
Omaha
Des Moines
Salt Lake City
Calgary
Salisbury
Hampton
Paramus
San Juan
Washington DC
Jackson

Med was:

Valencia
Barcelona
Nice
Monte Carlo
Madrid
Florence

All per World of Tennis 1974 pages 327-331

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2013, 12:59:42 PM »
Well, that's a problem there. Nastase participated in IWC events all winter there, and only 2 of them counted in his average. Identifying them by his points alone is impossible. I'm gonna have to crosscheck with other players and find common tournaments counted to more players.

EDIT: Also gonna think about the possibility that there existed a limitation to the number of IWC events to be counted, maybe they were even capped at 2.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 01:30:22 PM by Slasher1985 »

Offline JonG

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2013, 05:09:55 PM »
Sorry if the formatting is poor, but here we have a table showing how many ATP events we have missing for each player that finished in the top 35 in the GP (except for Geoff Masters who was not in the ATP top 50).

First column after name is ATP count, then GP, then WCT, then the balancing figure - i.e. events other than GP or WCT included in ATP rankings.

It seems to be the Europeans who have high numbers missing - which backs up the Med Tour theory.

One missing is obviously the ATP Alan King Classic.

Ramirez and Taylor seems to have more GP+WCT than ATP. That does not make sense - either an error somewhere or different interpretations of scratched tournaments.
 
1   Nastase   Ilie   23   17   0   6
2   Newcombe   John   17   15   0   2
3   Okker   Tom   29   18   11   0
4   Connors   Jimmy   17   16   0   1
5   Orantes   Manuel   24   17   0   7
6   Kodes   Jan   18   9   9   0
7   Smith   Stan   24   11   11   2
8   Gorman   Tom   27   15   10   2
9   Borg   Bjorn   22   17   0   5
10   Ashe   Arthur   28   16   11   1
11   Laver   Rod   20   8   11   1
12   Pilic   Nikki   28   16   10   2
13   Fillol   Jaime   28   17   10   1
14   Ramirez   Raul   18   19   0   -1
15   Parun   Onny   36   24   11   1
16   Amritraj   Vijay   15   15   0   0
17   Rosewall   Ken   19   7   11   1
18   Dibbs   Eddie   19   17   0   2
19   Meiler   Karl   18   14   0   4
20   Riessen   Marty   23   11   11   1
21   Metreveli   Alex   15   5   11   -1
22   Hrebec   Jiri   17   11   0   6
23   Case   Ross   30   19   11   0
24   Taylor   Roger   21   12   11   -2
25   Vilas   Guillermo   15   15   0   0
26   Panatta   Adriano   18   11   0   7
27   Gottfried   Brian   34   20   11   3
28   Cox   Mark   27   16   11   0
29   Fassbender   Jurgen   16   13   0   3
30   Pasarell   Charlie   29   17   11   1
31   Drysdale   Cliff   20   11   7   2
32   Bertolucci   Paolo   17   12   0   5
34   Moore   Ray   36   22   11   3
35   Alexander   John   28   15   11   2

The other thing that makes me suspect the US Indoor Circuit may be excluded is politics. Bill Riordan was at loggerheads with the ATP - so there may have been some mutual snubbing.


Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2013, 02:32:42 AM »
To take on the negatives.

For Ramirez, I suspect that Kitzbuhel did not count for any player, since play was abandoned, and the tournament never finished. I suspect there was a rule for this, yet I am unsure.
For Metreveli, I suspect an ATP error, there is no way - apart from forgetting to count one tournament - that his total was that.
For Taylor, I count 11 GP and 11 WCT (Dallas did not count since it was the Finals - no Finals ever counted). I also suspect that neither Johannesburg tournaments within his 52-week period between Masters counted, as it was very late in the year, so we can admit that his 21 count may be legit, except that Newcombe seems to count the Johannesburg-2 tournament in 1972 and Okker the other one in 1973, so we may have another error here.

I come back to Nastase. I am 90% sure that he counted 17 GP + 4 ESC + 2 USLTA (those being Calgary and one other). I suspect Calgary was counted because of crosschecking with Connors. Connors and Nastase played almost the same USLTA tournaments... except Calgary (and Nastase has 2 others, while Connors has 1).

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2013, 03:48:56 AM »
Alright, after this preliminary view of things, I'm going to start it in reverse-chronological order.

I have the official 1976-1977 point system (thanks to Mr Puppo), and I'm gonna attempt to calculate 1975.

First, I will deduce if 1976 carried any bonus points and I'm gonna use a system similar to 1976 for 1975 and the same bonus point amount. After that, I'm going to attempt the system on the players with the least number of tournaments.

Offline Litotes

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2013, 06:01:29 AM »
This is all extremely interesting!  :))

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2013, 07:16:02 AM »
What I just did is use the system from 1976 backwards into 1976 with appreciation to the prize pool of 1975.

So, if, you look in 1976, you have tournament categories above 175K, which should not exist in 1975, since there was no main tournament above this prize pool. Anything below this prize pool should be exactly the same in 1975, so 80-60-40-20 as max points for low tier tournaments, and anything above this (TC) should award 100 points to the winner. I used Borg as a calculation. You will notice a slight difference between his tournament total and the official total. That difference is the bonus points for winning against top players, and the amounts are yet to be determined.

1976
10
45
40
20
50
40
1
10
10
60
35
140
80
105
20
--------
Tournament Total: 666
Bonus Total: 123
Total: 789

1975
3
40
40
30
20
30
10
20
1
15
100
20
10
7
80
70
30
60
40
----------
Tournament Total: 626
Bonus Total: 102
Total: 728

Seemingly, there is a statistical chance that this is the correct system for 1975, as the ratios between Borg's total are similar. In 1975, the bonus points are about 14% of his total. And in 1976, 15.5%.

So, I say that, Mr Puppo could try to use this system for 1975, see where his calculations may lead him. I'm not 100% sure of it though, so take note:

Code: [Select]
           TC                       125-175                        75-125                   50-75                    25-50
  W        100                      80                             60                       40                       20
  F        75                       60                             45                       30                       15
 SF        50                       40                             30                       20                       10
 QF        25                       20                             15                       10                       5
R16        15                       10                             7                        5                        3
R32        7                        5                              3                        1                        1
R64        3                        1                              1                        -                        -
R128       1                        -                              -                        -                        -

And Vilas:

Code: [Select]
Munich - 40p
Bournemouth - 20p
Hamburg - 15p
Rome - 30p
RG - 75p
Nottingham - 15p
Wimbledon - 25p
Gstaad - 20p
Hilversum - 40p
Washington - 60p
Indianapolis - 40p
Louisville - 60p
Boston - 45p
US Open - 50p
San Francisco - 45p
Madrid - 20p
Barcelona - 40p
Tehran - 30p
Paris - 5p
Stockholm - 1p
Buenos Aires - 60p
------------------------
Tournament Total: 826p
Bonus Total: 67p
Total: 893p

We can take note that the bonus amount for Vilas may be smaller due to winning against less top players. But until we find out which were the bonus amounts, we can't know for sure. Mr Puppo, if you can contact Mr Vilas and find out a little more about these possible bonus points, we could be in business 100%.

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2013, 07:28:37 AM »
I noticed on Warehouse that someone there mentioned contacting Mr Evans. Tell us if you are successful with that, Mr Puppo. :)

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2013, 03:40:47 AM »
After a few interchanges, I decided to use the following systems for 1974 and 1975:

Let's not yet call it a final version:


As I said earlier, I started from the worse players. First on the list was Jiri Hrebec, ranked 53rd in 1975. His breakdown went as following:

Code: [Select]
Jiri Hrebec
1. Philadelphia WCT [100K] - R64 - 1p
2. Basel [25K] - W - 20p
3. Toronto WCT [50K] - R32 - 1p
4. Fort Worth WCT [50K] - QF - 10p
5. San Antonio WCT [50K] - R32 - 1p
6. Washington WCT [50K] - R16 - 5p
7. Memphis [50K] - F - 30p
8. Atlanta WCT [50K] - R32 - 1p
9. Roland Garros [TC] - R32 - 7p
10. Wimbledon [TC] - R128 - 1p
11. Kitzbuhel [50K] - QF - 10p
12. Boston [100K] - R64 - 1p
13. US Open [TC] - R128 - 1p
14. Madrid [75K] - R64 - 1p
15. Barcelona [75K] - R16 - 7p
16. Stockholm [100K] - R16 - 10p
17. London [75K] - R32 - 3p
----------------------------------------
TOTAL: 110p
BONUS: beating Nastase at Basel [25K] = 1p (statistical approximation - 55% certainty)
FINAL: 111p / 17 = 6.53

You will notice his London WCT result not counted. I will assume that no 16-Draw tournaments counted for rankings, although this is an unsure scenario. Since the Grand Prix never used 16-Draws, it is assumed that WCT and other tours employed them, but ATP didn't want to handle them since it wasn't in their rankings tabling.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 04:17:04 AM by Slasher1985 »

Online mimi

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2013, 04:07:23 AM »
 :winner: :worthy: :rim shot: great work Marian, don't know how you managed to do that wiht your busy life?  thank you so much .
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 04:08:49 AM by mimi »

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Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2013, 04:08:26 AM »
And here is Molina:

Code: [Select]
Ivan Molina
1. Philadelphia WCT [100K] - R64 - 1p
2. Dayton [25K] - R16 - 1p
3. St Petersburg WCT [50K] - 5p
4. Salisbury [75K] - R16 - 7p
5. La Costa WCT [50K] - R32 - 1p
6. Sao Paulo WCT [50K] - R32 - 1p
7. Caracas WCT [50K] - R32 - 1p
8. Orlando WCT [50K] - R32 - 1p
9. Tuscon [125K] - R64 - 1p
10. St Louis [50K] - R32 - 1p
11. Denver WCT [50K] - R16 - 5p
12. Charlotte [50K] - QF - 10p
13. Nice [50K] - F - 30p
14. Munich [50K] - R16 - 5p
15. Bournemouth [50K] - R64 - 0p
16. Hamburg [100K] - R64 - 1p
17. Dusseldorf [50K] - R32 - 1p
18. Roland Garros [TC] - R128 - 1p
19. Nottingham [100K] - R64 - 1p
20. Wimbledon [TC] - R128 - 1p
21. Gstaad [50K] - QF - 10p
22. Hilversum [50K] - R16 - 5p
23. Washington [100K] - R32 - 5p
24. Indianapolis [125K] - QF - 25p
25. Louisville [100K] - R32 - 5p
26. Canada [100K] - R16 - 10p
27. Boston [100K] - R64 - 1p
28. US Open [TC] - R64 - 3p
29. Madrid [75K] - R32 - 3p
30. Barcelona [75K] - R32 - 3p
31. Tehran [75K] - F - 45p
32. Paris [50K] - R32 - 1p
33. Stockholm [100K] - R64 - 1p
34. Buenos Aires [75K] - QF - 15p
------------------------------------------
TOTAL: 207p
BONUS: beat Metreveli at Salisbury [75K] - 2p
       beat Laver at Canada [100K] - 4p
       beat Orantes at Tehran [75K] - 3p
FINAL: 216p / 34 = 6.35

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2013, 06:07:08 AM »
I have computed possible Vilas @ #1 scenarios (ignoring eventual bonus points):

before London/Buenos Aires 1975:
Connors would have counted London and Johannesburg 1974 instead of London 1975 -> 769 - 60 + 80 + 60 = 849/19 = 44.68
Vilas would have counted London and Buenos Aires 1974 instead of Buenos Aires 1975 -> 893 - 80 + 30 + 60 = 903/22 = 41.04

after London/Buenos Aires 1975:
Connors would have counted Johannesburg 1974 as well -> 769 + 80 = 849/19 = 44.68
Vilas would have counted Buenos Aires 1974 as well -> 893 + 60 = 953/22 = 43.31

Unfortunately, even if it seems close, Vilas would not have been #1 in November 1975.

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2013, 08:13:57 AM »
Tried to compute one of the big fishes: :))

Code: [Select]
Jimmy Connors
1. Australian Open [50K] - F - 30p
2. Bahamas [25K] - W - 20p
3. Birmingham [25K] - W - 20p
4. Little Rock [25K] - R16 - 3p
5. Salisbury [75K] - W - 60p
6. Boca Raton [50K] - W - 40p
7. Hampton [50K] - W - 40p
8. New York [50K] - DEF - 0p
9. Denver WCT [50K] - W - 40p
10. Nottingham [100K] - QF - 20p
11. Wimbledon [TC] - F - 90p
12. North Conway [75K] - W - 60p
13. South Orange [50K] - QF - 10p
14. US Open [TC] - F - 90p
15. Bermuda [50K] - W - 40p
16. Maui [50K] - W - 40p
17. Stockholm [100K] - F - 60p
18. London [75K] - F - 45p
----------------------------------------------
TOTAL: 708p
BONUS: beat Tanner at Wimbledon [TC] - 8p
       beat Ramirez at Wimbledon [TC] - 8p
       beat Amritraj at Wimbledon [TC] - 4p
       beat Laver at North Conway [75K] - 3p
       beat Rosewall at North Conway [75K] - 3p
       beat Solomon at US Open [TC] - 8p
       beat Borg at US Open [TC] - 12p
       beat Borg at Stockholm [100K] - 6p
       beat Okker at Stockholm [100K] - 6p
       beat Nastase at London [75K] - 3p
FINAL: 769p / 18 = 42.72

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2013, 01:27:57 AM »
Here's the other big fish (Guillermo Vilas):

Code: [Select]
================================================
Guillermo Vilas
1. Munich [50K] - W - 40p
2. Bournemouth [50K] - SF - 20p
3. Hamburg [100K] - QF - 20p
4. Rome [100K] - SF - 40p
5. Roland Garros [TC] - F - 90p
6. Nottingham [100K] - QF - 20p
7. Wimbledon [TC] - QF - 30p
8. Gstaad [50K] - SF - 20p
9. Hilversum [50K] - W - 40p
10. Washington [100K] - W - 80p
11. Indianapolis [125K] - SF - 50p
12. Louisville [100K] - W - 80p
13. Boston [100K] - F - 60p
14. US Open [TC] - SF - 60p
15. San Francisco [100K] - F - 60p
16. Madrid [75K] - QF - 15p
17. Barcelona [75K] - SF - 30p
18. Tehran [100K] - SF - 40p
19. Paris [50K] - R16 - 5p
20. Stockholm [100K] - R64 - 1p
21. Buenos Aires [75K] - W - 60p
------------------------------------------------
TOTAL: 861p
BONUS: beat Kodes at RG [TC] - 4p
       beat Parun at RG [TC] - 4p ---> POSSIBLY NOT COUNTED
       beat Ramirez at Washington [100K] - 4p
       beat Solomon at Washington [100K] - 4p
       beat Nastase at Louisville [100K] - 6p
       beat Ashe at Boston [100K] - 6p
       beat Laver at Boston [100K] - 4p
       beat Fillol at US Open [TC] - 4p
FINAL: 893p / 21 = 42.52 or 897 / 21 = 42.71
================================================

Be warned, as I feel there has been an error here. If this is the correct system, Vilas also beat Parun at Roland Garros and should have gotten 4 points for it.
His new average would have been 897 / 21 = 42.71. That's 0.01 behind Connors. :scared:
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 01:34:02 AM by Slasher1985 »

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2013, 01:59:18 AM »
I hereby authenticate this system as the actual system used in 1975 with a margin of error of 4%.



In the table 125K = 125000 or more, 100K between 100000 and 125000, 75K between 75000 and 100000, 50K between 50000 and 75000 and 25K between 25000 and 50000 prize pools.

The bonus system may be good as well, although, seems that for anything it could have been used subjectively depending on the nature and the difficulty of draw as well. There are many tournaments to which I didn't find out the prize pool, so that is how certain calculations may remain in doubt. To also add that ATP decided by unknown means which tournaments are counted or not to the rankings in certain situations across the years would be to show that it is actually impossible to reconstitute the exact calculations originally done.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 02:00:48 AM by Slasher1985 »