Author Topic: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)  (Read 6964 times)

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Offline Slasher1985

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Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #201 on: September 01, 2013, 10:45:34 AM »
Hmmm, some new logic needs to be added to the automation, so that this case of shared title is covered. We basically discovered a new rule here and it needs to be inserted well, checked, tested and then the 3 passes of 1973 need to be completely redone. It will take me about 1 hour and a half for each pass, but I can't do it right now.

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #202 on: September 01, 2013, 10:45:58 AM »
Thanks for the huge help, Jon. :))

Offline JonG

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #203 on: September 01, 2013, 04:41:28 PM »
Slasher,

Just had a quick look at the calendars on your skydrive.

Why do you include in 1968 Cincinatti and Kitzbuhel - amateur events with weak fields?

I would also leave out Dublin as no contract pros played although I believe that  they could have done if they wanted to.

Just ten 1968 events had both contract pros and independents.

I'll look closer at the other years when I can, but you seem to include a lot of small field contract pro only events in 1970.

There wasn't a WCT tour as such in 1970. There were 18 WCT pros and 6 NTL pros when WCT took over NTL contracts in September 1970. I would look at "contract pro only" events for 1970 in the same way as those in 1968 and 1969 and look to include just open events in 1970.

For 1971 on, the Grand Prix and the WCT tour become the starting point.

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #204 on: September 02, 2013, 02:26:53 AM »
Slasher,

Just had a quick look at the calendars on your skydrive.

Why do you include in 1968 Cincinatti and Kitzbuhel - amateur events with weak fields?

I would also leave out Dublin as no contract pros played although I believe that  they could have done if they wanted to.

Just ten 1968 events had both contract pros and independents.

I'll look closer at the other years when I can, but you seem to include a lot of small field contract pro only events in 1970.

There wasn't a WCT tour as such in 1970. There were 18 WCT pros and 6 NTL pros when WCT took over NTL contracts in September 1970. I would look at "contract pro only" events for 1970 in the same way as those in 1968 and 1969 and look to include just open events in 1970.

For 1971 on, the Grand Prix and the WCT tour become the starting point.

Well, if you can tell me what tournaments to include or not, please do, and it shall be done. I have no idea whatsoever which tournaments to include, I've included what I found on the ATP site. This is more than one man can handle and I certainly need help for the logistics part, that is why I put the calendars in public's eye, so I can receive feedback. As long as I have all the information, I can do this perfectly. You're an expert on this matter, and, alongside Markus, you guys are the right people who can help make this 100% accurate.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 02:38:04 AM by Slasher1985 »

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #205 on: September 02, 2013, 03:52:04 AM »
OK, so for 1968, I have eliminated Cincinnati and Kitzbuhel. Dublin stays as it was an open event, despite not having a mix of competitors.

I see that WCT stayed a professional event in 1970. This move is gonna cause some major changes in the rankings I guess, but we have to stay true to the goal, which is an OPEN era rankings history.

I see that Cincinnati became open in 1969, along with Indianapolis. I see former amateur players in a prize money payout format. Can you confirm this?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 03:57:28 AM by Slasher1985 »

Offline Litotes

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #206 on: September 02, 2013, 10:45:26 AM »
The final between Ramirez and Orantes was not played. The title was shared.

That solves both players at the same time. :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

It basically means that if this happens, ATP awards 5p to each, instead of 6-4.

Thus, we have Orantes' missing point and the reason Ramirez has one extra point. :zipped:

Yep, sharing victory wasn't that uncommon at the time. Some finals did rain away.

Offline JonG

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #207 on: September 02, 2013, 02:23:50 PM »
Well, if you can tell me what tournaments to include or not, please do, and it shall be done. I have no idea whatsoever which tournaments to include, I've included what I found on the ATP site. This is more than one man can handle and I certainly need help for the logistics part, that is why I put the calendars in public's eye, so I can receive feedback. As long as I have all the information, I can do this perfectly. You're an expert on this matter, and, alongside Markus, you guys are the right people who can help make this 100% accurate.


There seem to be people on two other tennis forums with loads of knowledge - far more than me. I found this on one. Someone says that there were 32 Open events in 1969 - and list what were open and what were pro only events.

Can't find anything similar for 1970.

Worth asking on the other forums?

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=186787&page=4

Offline JonG

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #208 on: September 02, 2013, 02:34:16 PM »

Offline Swish

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #209 on: September 02, 2013, 03:17:09 PM »
Decided to ask the question:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=7715197#post7715197

 
There are some very knowledgeable people there and some of them are contributing to a tennis history book of some sort.
 
Many of them also have detailed knowledge of the tournaments before the 80's, even going back into the 50's.
 
Let them know you like Laver and Gonzales, it will help.  :)
 
 
 
 

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #210 on: September 03, 2013, 12:44:14 AM »
Thanks for that list. So, Philadelphia was an open event and all I'm missing is Perth and Aix-en-Provence.

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #211 on: September 03, 2013, 01:11:13 AM »
Everyone tells me that I am not allowed to have an account there, since I'm a MTF member, so I haven't tried. Thanks for the help guys, Warehouse is my favorite tennis community. A lot of good information there. :)

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #212 on: September 03, 2013, 01:41:09 AM »
Sorry, not Perth and Aix-en-Provence.

Berlin and Aix-en-Provence are the draws I'm missing. All I get is their final rounds on this site (or where they 8-draws, like Bristol?) :

http://tennis-pronostics.com/calendar/1969

I added these to my draw folder, and the 1969 calendar is now updated.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 02:48:26 AM by Slasher1985 »

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #213 on: September 03, 2013, 06:11:20 AM »
Redone 1968 and 1969 with the new data, thanks again JonG. Tremendously helpful as always.

I will continue with 1970, once we are clear what tournaments really were open. Can we assume that all GP events were open? What about the GP-WCT event at Louisville (a 16-draw)? Philadelphia surely was open in 1970 if it was in 1969.

Offline JonG

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #214 on: September 03, 2013, 04:55:34 PM »
Berlin and Aix-en-Provence are the draws I'm missing. All I get is their final rounds on this site (or where they 8-draws, like Bristol?)


Bristol was a big field:

http://www.tennisarchives.com/voorloopfiche.php?wedstrijdvoorloopid=5551

Aix:

http://www.tennisarchives.com/voorloopfiche.php?wedstrijdvoorloopid=6170


Berlin:

http://www.tennisarchives.com/voorloopfiche.php?wedstrijdvoorloopid=5123

All not quite complete.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 06:02:05 PM by JonG »

Offline Swish

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #215 on: September 03, 2013, 05:21:35 PM »
Everyone tells me that I am not allowed to have an account there, since I'm a MTF member, so I haven't tried. Thanks for the help guys, Warehouse is my favorite tennis community. A lot of good information there. :)

Just open an account. The information is in what they call the "Former Pro Player Talk".
 
Just browse around there and see if there's anything that may help.
If so they like to talk about old tournaments in detail, so detailed, in fact, that I get zoned out and have to take a nap.  :rofl_2:
 
 

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #216 on: September 04, 2013, 01:49:19 AM »
Wow, good to see that site has gotten to 1969 and 1970. It's been my source for pro and amateur era tournaments, but now I see it has grown to 1969. That's a powerful research the guy is undergoing. Thanks for the link.

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #217 on: September 10, 2013, 10:18:06 AM »
Anyone have the components of the 1974 WCT groups? They each had 28 players. Wanna see if John Lloyd was in any of the groups. I think that players not in the groups didn't count their WCT events for the ATP rankings.

Offline Slasher1985

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #218 on: September 10, 2013, 01:30:21 PM »
Also, 1971-1973 if available in the World of Tennis data. :)

Offline JonG

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Re: Full Open Era Rankings (RESEARCH PHASE)
« Reply #219 on: September 11, 2013, 05:51:52 PM »
Anyone have the components of the 1974 WCT groups? They each had 28 players. Wanna see if John Lloyd was in any of the groups. I think that players not in the groups didn't count their WCT events for the ATP rankings.


That's strange. Eight tournaments for each group plus Philadelphia for all - a maximum of nine per player. Or maybe not!

Can't see how Kodes would have qualified for Dallas without his mystery tournament win!





« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 06:02:59 PM by JonG »