Author Topic: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .  (Read 619 times)

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Offline medwatt

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Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« on: April 21, 2013, 03:22:13 PM »
. . . and would Nadal be hailed as best clay courter of all time ?? Of course, Nadal's claim to the title as GOAT on clay is as a result of him beating Federer multitude of times since Federer was at the same time making the finals.
Now, lets assume the reverse scenario, Federer beating Nadal in as much as he in reality lost. So would have Federer had a claim to the GOAT on clay ?? Well, you will never be certain because if Federer is replaced with Djokovic . . .

PS: From a neutral fan !!
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Offline pawan89

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 04:09:04 PM »
I'm a little confused. Nadal's claim to the title as GOAT on clay is a result of him winning on clay that much, not because of Federer. He would have (and did) win against anyone and everyone, not just Federer. He's beaten countless others over and over again who ought to be worse a  match-up for him than Federer ever was on clay. So I disagree with that statement that he's GOAT because he beat up on Federer. That'd be diminishing his achievements on clay.

Same goes with Federer, if he had beaten Nadal on clay all the time but didn't dominate the surface he would not have been goat, he'd just have been a successful clay courter, much like Ferrer is. If Federer was replaced by Djokovic I think Djokovic and Nadal would most likely have split the titles and neither would have been GOAT but a solid rivalry. Much like what Djokovic and Federer kinda have had for the past couple years now on hardcourts. Well not really because they still do lose to others along the way, neither is dominating the hard-court like Federer and Nadal did at one point (or Djokovic and Nadal would have)

This is one confusing post haha. I tried to make as much sense as I could.


Offline Swish

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2013, 09:15:39 PM »
Nadal would most likely be the best at any time.
 
It would depend on which Djokovic he was playing too.
 
Djokovic 2.0 should be able to take some away from Nadal.

Offline medwatt

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2013, 09:51:37 PM »
I'm a little confused. Nadal's claim to the title as GOAT on clay is a result of him winning on clay that much, not because of Federer. He would have (and did) win against anyone and everyone, not just Federer. He's beaten countless others over and over again who ought to be worse a  match-up for him than Federer ever was on clay. So I disagree with that statement that he's GOAT because he beat up on Federer. That'd be diminishing his achievements on clay.

Same goes with Federer, if he had beaten Nadal on clay all the time but didn't dominate the surface he would not have been goat, he'd just have been a successful clay courter, much like Ferrer is. If Federer was replaced by Djokovic I think Djokovic and Nadal would most likely have split the titles and neither would have been GOAT but a solid rivalry. Much like what Djokovic and Federer kinda have had for the past couple years now on hardcourts. Well not really because they still do lose to others along the way, neither is dominating the hard-court like Federer and Nadal did at one point (or Djokovic and Nadal would have)

This is one confusing post haha. I tried to make as much sense as I could.
You missed the point ! Me saying it was because of beating Federer a lot on clay implies Federer too was invariably winning against everyone on clay against Nadal and so if Federer had been winning the finals (at least half of them), will Nadal still be the GOAT on clay ??? Thats my point !!
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Offline Alex

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 03:07:07 AM »
Med, the way I see it is that Fed/Nadal is a horrible match up. I actually don't like their matches at all, except on grass. Nadal pounding Fed's BH, Fed making UE, so predictable ... I still can't believe that Fed simply didn't even try to change his game and adapt.

 It's funny how Djokovic is exploiting Rafa's BH nowadays. nothing Rafa can do. I'm just rewatching the MC final.


Offline monstertruck

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 06:21:30 AM »
Med, the way I see it is that Fed/Nadal is a horrible match up. I actually don't like their matches at all, except on grass. Nadal pounding Fed's BH, Fed making UE, so predictable ... I still can't believe that Fed simply didn't even try to change his game and adapt.

 It's funny how Djokovic is exploiting Rafa's BH nowadays. nothing Rafa can do. I'm just rewatching the MC final.
Fear, arrogance, or a collossal error in judgement, who knows?
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Offline pawan89

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2013, 08:39:03 AM »
Med, the way I see it is that Fed/Nadal is a horrible match up. I actually don't like their matches at all, except on grass. Nadal pounding Fed's BH, Fed making UE, so predictable ... I still can't believe that Fed simply didn't even try to change his game and adapt.

 It's funny how Djokovic is exploiting Rafa's BH nowadays. nothing Rafa can do. I'm just rewatching the MC final.
Fear, arrogance, or a collossal error in judgement, who knows?

Or simply changing your game once it has reached a certain level and has earned you a certain amount of success is really tough. Think about how many people are stuck at their rankings (I'm talking about everyone from world number 2 and the likes of Murray and Tsonga and Berdych to world number 500 and world number 1000), I'm sure there are folks who are just dedicated and physically gifted, if only they could change their games to start winning more. But it doesn't happen for everyone. Or maybe they just don't work hard enough, maybe Fed's the same case.


Offline monstertruck

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2013, 08:47:37 AM »
Fed has said as much in the past.
He has confidence in his game as it is.
It seemed to work against all but one player with only a few exceptions.
Perhaps he was right.
Perhaps there is/was nothing he could have done that would have mattered.
At this point we can only speculate.
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Offline pawan89

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2013, 09:19:34 AM »
I mean one can always evolve and get better. There's no better example than Nadal himself. It's just as fair to say Fed could/should have done better and changed his game as it is to give him the benefit of doubt. I guess like you said we can only speculate.

Too bad there aren't too many folks who HAVE had success against Nadal on clay, to draw parallels from. In fact Fed has been the most successful player against Nada on clayl, scoring 2 wins and a couple sets along the way. And only player to have eclipsed that success with some quality wins has been Djokovic and too bad we can't draw too many parallels between Federer and Djokovic on clay. Or can we? Would it really be too simplistic to say that Djokovic's backhand gives him the weapon that Federer never had, and not only was Fed's backhand not a weapon, against Nadal it was a liability and a much targeted weakness - and weakness is something Djokovic does not have. Even prior to 2011, Djokovic has had many tough battles against Nadal. Never won them because he just wasn't strong/good enough but there also wasn't a clear weakness for Nadal to target and conquer, the way he has always had with Federer.

again i think he should have done more. 'bad matchup' is not a phrase befitting champions. 


Offline medwatt

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2013, 09:39:34 AM »
Really how can a player with a 1-hander change his game to adapt to Nadal's incessant backhand pounding ? The 1-hander has a limit in power production for a given player. So for Federer to adapt is to change to a 2-hander. Now if you say Federer doesn't like grinding it out against Nadal, I'd say look the earlier matches between the two. It always comes down to that 1-hander.
Look how solid Djokovic's backhand is !! Djokovic's only weakness is presence of mind during the match. Other than that I can't say Nadal has a plan to beat him.
Last year's MC : effects of a dead grandfather
Lasr year's RG: Absence of mind during that 4th set (Djokovic was on fire !!)
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Offline monstertruck

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2013, 10:01:50 AM »
Practice taking the ball earlier on the BH wing.
Attacking ROS when opportunities arise.
Play higher risk tennis all around in an attempt to shorten the length of the rallies and disprupt Nadal's rhythm.
Don't allow him to stall.  Get in his face and make it personal.
Plenty of choices both technical and tactical.
Perhaps Rogi didn't want to upset the apple cart with his game vs. the other 99.99% of the field.
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Offline medwatt

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2013, 01:30:52 PM »
Practice taking the ball earlier on the BH wing.
Attacking ROS when opportunities arise.
Play higher risk tennis all around in an attempt to shorten the length of the rallies and disprupt Nadal's rhythm.
Don't allow him to stall.  Get in his face and make it personal.
Plenty of choices both technical and tactical.
Perhaps Rogi didn't want to upset the apple cart with his game vs. the other 99.99% of the field.
Didn't he do that ?? Watch 2007 Federer and compare him with today. Federer was playing almost serve and volley all the time. Also everyone in this world knows that Federer is always eager to end points given the opportunity. Playing Nadal is not a technical game (in most cases) . . . it is a game of brutal power. The only place you can play Nadal a technical game is on fast indoor carpets where it is possible to blow him out. Apart from that a win comes through wearing him out, ironically, that's his ace game plan.
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Offline Alex

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2013, 01:38:51 PM »
Really how can a player with a 1-hander change his game to adapt to Nadal's incessant backhand pounding ? The 1-hander has a limit in power production for a given player. So for Federer to adapt is to change to a 2-hander. Now if you say Federer doesn't like grinding it out against Nadal, I'd say look the earlier matches between the two. It always comes down to that 1-hander.
Look how solid Djokovic's backhand is !! Djokovic's only weakness is presence of mind during the match. Other than that I can't say Nadal has a plan to beat him.
Last year's MC : effects of a dead grandfather
Lasr year's RG: Absence of mind during that 4th set (Djokovic was on fire !!)
Med, this has been debated for years and there are millions of articles on the net. My strong belief is that Fed is probably the most intelligent player ever.  I'm not saying he should've switched to a 2 hander but there are many other things he could've done differently. I said it already. Nadal always plays the same, yet Fed was stubborn IMHO. Fed's one hander was a thing of beauty btw. I don't know how many beautiful winners he made with that one hander.

Novak, on the other hand is a monster in terms that he really does not have any weaknesses. everyone agrees on that, I read on MTF, some kids will say, oh he is not good at the net. I'm like, he is actually very good at the  net and he improved a lot. when he won the AO this year he won almost all points at the net.

anyway, Fed won everything. you guys should  be proud of him. everything he does nowadays is a bonus. Med, it is an intriguing thread but all we can do is speculate.  :)

Offline Rafa816

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2013, 02:28:07 PM »
As MS said, switching to a two-hander is in no way the only thing Roger could do. One-handed BH aren't weaknesses, or no one would use them. Look at Gasquet. His biggest strength is that beautiful one-handed BH. But Fed never did anything with his BH in order to counter Nadal's strategy. He was too stubborn. Again, as MS said, he could've practiced taking it right off the ground. But he didn't. He just let Rafa pound on his BH and never did anything about it.

And Nole might not have any weaknesses, but that doesn't mean the only way Rafa can beat him is through mental weakness. What about Nadal's two-set to love lead against him at RG last year? You say the only reason Rafa won was because Novak lost it in the fourth set, but what about the first two sets? And his break lead in the third? Really, the only reason Nole got in that match in the first place is because of the rain, which helps the ball get heaver and the surface get damp, helping to neutralize Rafa's biggest weapon: his forehand.

Rafa is the FIRST to qualify for WTF this year! :D

Offline monstertruck

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2013, 02:46:23 PM »
As MS said, switching to a two-hander is in no way the only thing Roger could do. One-handed BH aren't weaknesses, or no one would use them. Look at Gasquet. His biggest strength is that beautiful one-handed BH. But Fed never did anything with his BH in order to counter Nadal's strategy. He was too stubborn. Again, as MS said, he could've practiced taking it right off the ground. But he didn't. He just let Rafa pound on his BH and never did anything about it. And Nole might not have any weaknesses, but that doesn't mean the only way Rafa can beat him is through mental weakness. What about Nadal's two-set to love lead against him at RG last year? You say the only reason Rafa won was because Novak lost it in the fourth set, but what about the first two sets? And his break lead in the third? Really, the only reason Nole got in that match in the first place is because of the rain, which helps the ball get heaver and the surface get damp, helping to neutralize Rafa's biggest weapon: his forehand.
That's what I saw 99% of the time from Fed.
Never was there an all out assault on Nadal.
I think Rogi had the temerity to believe he could rally with Raf and still win.  Well, his ego paid the price for that error in judgement.

Fed was never a true S&V player.
I think he detests that sort of play as ugly tennis.
Too bad so sad.
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Offline Rafa816

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2013, 03:07:13 PM »
Yeah. Federer was way too confident and stubborn. He beat Nadal once on clay and decided that meant he didn't have to adjust his play to beat him.

Rafa is the FIRST to qualify for WTF this year! :D

Offline Dallas

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2013, 03:50:12 PM »
Really how can a player with a 1-hander change his game to adapt to Nadal's incessant backhand pounding ? The 1-hander has a limit in power production for a given player. So for Federer to adapt is to change to a 2-hander. Now if you say Federer doesn't like grinding it out against Nadal, I'd say look the earlier matches between the two. It always comes down to that 1-hander.
Look how solid Djokovic's backhand is !! Djokovic's only weakness is presence of mind during the match. Other than that I can't say Nadal has a plan to beat him.
Last year's MC : effects of a dead grandfather
Lasr year's RG: Absence of mind during that 4th set (Djokovic was on fire !!)
Med, this has been debated for years and there are millions of articles on the net. My strong belief is that Fed is probably the most intelligent player ever.  I'm not saying he should've switched to a 2 hander but there are many other things he could've done differently. I said it already. Nadal always plays the same, yet Fed was stubborn IMHO. Fed's one hander was a thing of beauty btw. I don't know how many beautiful winners he made with that one hander.

Novak, on the other hand is a monster in terms that he really does not have any weaknesses. everyone agrees on that, I read on MTF, some kids will say, oh he is not good at the net. I'm like, he is actually very good at the  net and he improved a lot. when he won the AO this year he won almost all points at the net.

anyway, Fed won everything. you guys should  be proud of him. everything he does nowadays is a bonus. Med, it is an intriguing thread but all we can do is speculate.  :)

That's exactly how I feel! :))

Offline Alex

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2013, 05:12:14 PM »
As MS said, switching to a two-hander is in no way the only thing Roger could do. One-handed BH aren't weaknesses, or no one would use them. Look at Gasquet. His biggest strength is that beautiful one-handed BH. But Fed never did anything with his BH in order to counter Nadal's strategy. He was too stubborn. Again, as MS said, he could've practiced taking it right off the ground. But he didn't. He just let Rafa pound on his BH and never did anything about it. And Nole might not have any weaknesses, but that doesn't mean the only way Rafa can beat him is through mental weakness. What about Nadal's two-set to love lead against him at RG last year? You say the only reason Rafa won was because Novak lost it in the fourth set, but what about the first two sets? And his break lead in the third? Really, the only reason Nole got in that match in the first place is because of the rain, which helps the ball get heaver and the surface get damp, helping to neutralize Rafa's biggest weapon: his forehand.
That's what I saw 99% of the time from Fed.
Never was there an all out assault on Nadal.
I think Rogi had the temerity to believe he could rally with Raf and still win.  Well, his ego paid the price for that error in judgement.

Fed was never a true S&V player.
I think he detests that sort of play as ugly tennis.
Too bad so sad.
you both are right here. I remember that match back in Hamburg, what was it 2008 I think, sorry guys I forgot. Fed was killing Rafa, he was so aggressive, being up 2 breaks ... and suddenly he plays utter sh!t, rallying with Nadal, being passive, just putting the ball back,  and he lost that first set and the match. Rafa was your typical Rafa, didn't do anything special. Nole can run with Rafa all day long, but Nole has that unique quality that he can play defense/offense style like nobody else on the tour plus has probably the best BH on the tour.

 Fed was stubborn. Fed in his prime should've been much more aggressive when playing Nadal. somehow he had that mental block and he would go up and down but ultimately he would end up losing even on HC.

Offline monstertruck

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2013, 09:23:58 PM »
It didn't appear to be a mental block as much as a desire to beat Nadal at his own game.  Who can blame him for that?

I think after a few matches on clay it then evolved into a lack of confidence which translated to other surfaces.

Full credit to Raf, he did what needed to be done and never let up.  Ever.
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Offline Start da Game

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Re: Replace Federer with Djokovic from 2005-2008 . . .
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2013, 01:00:44 PM »
Nadal would most likely be the best at any time.
 
It would depend on which Djokovic he was playing too.
 
Djokovic 2.0 should be able to take some away from Nadal.

the problem with that assertion is that djokovic 2.0 is a result of facing nadal 0.5.......we all saw what happened when nadal regrouped in the 2012 clay season.......right?

as for this thread, nadal did not make his clay greatness beating just federer.........besides beating several other clay courters, he defeated djokovic everywhere on clay and prevented him from getting into another gear at a time when djokovic was on a real high off his first grandslam win........

hamburg '08, roland garros '08, montecarlo '09, rome '09, madrid '09 were all intense stuff and let me tell you nadal of 2011 would surely have lost hamburg 2008 and madrid 2009........

so let's not paint it as if he picked up his racket and started playing in 2011.......2008 was going to be a sensational year for him had nadal not confronted him repeatedly........   

2008 nadal hammered him on every surface including the fastest hardcourt of beijing........nadal was the reason why djokovic's peak got delayed by 2 years.......nadal defeated him so badly everywhere and left him dry by the end of 2009 clay season.......djokovic took 18 months to recover from that........

he messed with his rackets, messed with his serve and tried changing his diet........even though changing diet helped his cause, serbian media painted the whole episode as if gluten derailed his career........   

people forget past quite quickly........2008 nadal is an unforgettable phase in tennis history........

Marian Vajda to Novak Djokovic, "I saw you beat that man like I never saw no man get beat before, and the man KEPT COMING AFTER YOU! Now we don't need no man like that in our lives."

i demand french open to be renamed RAFAEL GARROS