Author Topic: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?  (Read 1409 times)

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Offline Swish

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Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« on: April 22, 2013, 08:47:06 PM »
Nadal leads the H2H 19-15. A few years ago it was 16-7.
 
Then 2011 happened, Nole took that year 6-0, 4 masters and 2 slams.
 
In the past 11 meetings it's 8-3 Djokovic.
 
Will Djokovic eventually lead this rivalry?
 
 
 
 
H2H at each slam and masters:
Australian open - Djokovic 1-0
French open - Nadal 4-0
Wimbledon - tied 1-1
US open - tied 1-1
Indian wells - Djokovic 2-1
Miami - Djokovic 2-0
Monte Carlo - Nadal 2-1
Rome - Nadal 3-1
Madrid/Hamburg - Nadal 2-1 (Nadal won once at each)
Canada - Djokovic 1-0
Cincinnati - Djokovic 2-0
Paris - Djokovic 1-0
Wtf - Nadal 2-1.
 
Here's the complete list:
 
Rafael Nadal 19-15 Novak Djokovic
2006 French Open QF: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (6-4, 6-4 ret.)
2007 Indian Wells F: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (6-2, 7-5)
2007 Miami QF: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (6-3, 6-4)
2007 Rome QF: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (6-2, 6-3)
2007 French Open SF: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (7-5, 6-4, 6-2)
2007 Wimbledon SF: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (3-6, 6-1, 4-1 ret.)
2007 Montreal SF: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (7-5, 6-3)
2007 Masters Cup RR: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (6-4, 6-4)
2008 Indian Wells SF: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (6-3, 6-2)
2008 Hamburg SF: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (7-5, 2-6, 6-2)
2008 French Open SF: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (6-4, 6-2, 7-6)
2008 Queen's Club F: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (7-6, 7-5)
2008 Cincinnati SF: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (6-1, 7-5)
2008 Beijing Olympics SF: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (6-4, 1-6, 6-4)
2009 Davis Cup 1R: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (6-4, 6-4, 6-1)
2009 Monte Carlo F: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (6-3, 2-6, 6-1)
2009 Rome F: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (7-6, 6-2)
2009 Madrid SF: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (3-6, 7-6, 7-6)
2009 Cincinnati SF: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (6-1, 6-4)
2009 Paris Indoor SF: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (6-2, 6-3)
2009 World Tour Finals RR: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (7-6, 6-3)

2010 US Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (6-4, 5-7, 6-4, 6-2)
2010 World Tour Finals RR: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (7-5, 6-2)

2011 Indian Wells F: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (4-6, 6-3, 6-2)
2011 Miami F: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (4-6, 6-3, 7-6)
2011 Madrid F: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (7-5, 6-4)
2011 Rome F: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (6-4, 6-4)
2011 Wimbledon F: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (6-4, 6-1, 1-6, 6-3)
2011 US Open F: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (6-2, 6-4, 6-7, 6-1)
2012 Australian Open F: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (5-7, 6-4, 6-2, 6-7, 7-5)
2012 Monte Carlo F: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (6-3, 6-1)
2012 Rome F: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (7-5, 6-3)
2012 French Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Novak Djokovic (6-4, 6-3, 2-6, 7-5)

2013 Monte Carlo F: Novak Djokovic def. Rafael Nadal (6-2, 7-6)

Hardcourt: 11-5 to Djokovic
Clay: 12-3 to Nadal
Grass: 2-1 to Nadal
Carpet: 0-0
In Majors: 6-3 to Nadal
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 09:07:37 PM by swish »

Offline Clay Death

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 09:04:00 PM »
nadal just has to take care of the clay and of course his lead in the majors going forward for his own case. head to head does not matter in the long run scheme of things.
 
 what matters most for these top players the most now is how often they beat each other in the majors. history pays far more attention to that than anything else where slams are considered.
 
rest of the time, it does not matter how many times nole wins. hopefully nadal will start to cut back much more drastically his activities on hard courts.
 
given that the hard courts have just about destroyed nadal`s ground game and his knees, he would be far better off concentrating on wining his share of the battles now on natural surfaces.

Offline Clay Death

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2013, 09:06:02 PM »
excellent thread idea general swish.
 
its clear that nadal is floundering and roger is aging. that helps nole`s cause the most.
 
and murray is still trying to find his own dominance at the top.
 
rest of the players don't have the movement and the fitness of nole and they never will.

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2013, 09:39:58 PM »
Amazing they've met 34 times.

Very interesting. It's going to be close.
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Offline Swish

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 11:39:09 PM »
Nole got as close as 2 when they were 16-14.
 
I think Nole will close the gap, he's gaining momentum and has longer periods of strong play.
 
Now with Nadal not at #2 Nole can meet Nadal earlier.
 
This will matter because on hard courts Nadal won't make as many finals but now can meet Djokovic before the finals so there's a better chance they'll meet.
 
 

Offline Clay Death

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 11:51:59 PM »
at the current rate nadal`s best bet is to forget about the rankings and forget about the hard courts completely.
 
he should just shoot for 2 more slams on natural surfaces.
 
he just spent 7 months on the sidelines because of knee issues and because he did not want to fight and compete.
 
he lost a part of 2009 to knee isues as well. and then there have been countless other times he has had injuries which have forced him out.
 
 
he really cant take anymore risks on hard courts. and his greatest competitive advantage has always been on the natural surfaces anyway.
 
its best to get some of that back before he loses that too.
 
 
he is useless on hard courts anyway. this indian wells was the luckiest title of his career and it means absolutely nothing in the long run scheme of things.
 
all it did was cost him a title at monte carlo and gave nole a bit of a mental edge for Madrid.

Offline Swish

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2013, 12:12:32 AM »
It's a slippery slope.
Once his ranking drops he'll be meeting tougher competition early everywhere and have a better chance of losing everywhere.
 
He can't just drop the hard courts, he could tank but probably won't.
 
Djokovic is making strides as far as tournaments won and in most areas now and has no signs of slowing down in the least.
 
This is the challenge Federer had awhile back with Nadal in 2008 and after that too, he continued on and won more slams, masters, weeks at #1 and added WTF's.
 
 

Offline Clay Death

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2013, 12:20:15 AM »
but hard courts could mean a very quick end to his career. I would not take that chance now.
 
nadal has exceeded all his expectations and won every slam in sight and also became the greatest clay court player in history.
 
might as well shoot for 2 more slams on natural surfaces and call it a career. and the way to make that really meaningful is to meet nole in the finals. he is the one nadal has to go after in at least 2 slam finals on natural surfaces.
 
that would be my challenge at least given the condition of the knees at this point. I mean that is what I would do.
 
 
the fact of the matter is that he cant move like he used to. why spend another 7-9 months on the sidelines and finish off the movement and the game completely. next 7-9 month exit will mean the end of his career.
 
 
he has really fallen this time. it is going to take a little bit of luck this time to capture the RG crown. nole will be have to be slightly fatigued and off his game.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 12:21:08 AM by Clay Death »

Offline Swish

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2013, 12:28:00 AM »
I think Nadal will play 4-5 more years.
His knees are OK now and with smart scheduling he can rest.
 
 
I think Djokovic wants to do as much damage mentally to Nadal as he can before RG, he wants it all from the best.
 
Nothing would make those wins on clay more valuable.
 

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2013, 12:46:33 AM »
excellent thread general swish.
 
keep up the good work.
 
 
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Offline August

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2013, 02:44:03 AM »
If they were two best players in the World and Rafa were able to play his best game for the entire year, they' have tons of matches. And most of the matches being outside clay would would lead to Nole catching Rafa in H2H.

But right now it's hard for Rafa to get to semis/finals outside clay, making most Noledal matches being played on clay. That makes it difficult for Nole to catch Rafa.

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Offline Litotes

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2013, 03:31:11 AM »
If they were two best players in the World and Rafa were able to play his best game for the entire year, they' have tons of matches. And most of the matches being outside clay would would lead to Nole catching Rafa in H2H.

But right now it's hard for Rafa to get to semis/finals outside clay, making most Noledal matches being played on clay. That makes it difficult for Nole to catch Rafa.

I don't see why most matches would be outside clay if they were the two best players. When Federer and Nadal were the two best players, this pattern didn't emerge. Most matches were clay ones. From 2006 to and including 2010, 11 matches on clay and 8 on grass/HC. (2005 they only met before Nadal became 2nd, once on clay and once on HC).


Offline Litotes

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2013, 03:33:28 AM »
Amazing they've met 34 times.

Very interesting. It's going to be close.

34 is quite amazing. It is, in fact, just one off the record - Lendl and Connors met 35 times. Also Becker and Edberg. No two men has met more often in the Open Era. Still a bit up to the women, though, Navratilova and Evert met 80 times......

Offline Alex

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2013, 07:36:21 AM »
34 matches is absolutely crazy. I've never even thought about it. now, Can Novak overtake h2h/rivalry with Nadal? sure he can. will he, I don't know. OK, I'm being a smart ass here.  :whistle:. to be honest with you it doesn't really matter. it's close, Rafa was an early bloomer.

the question I have on my mind right now is ... will  Nole win more slams than Rafa, long way to go tho.

Offline Rafa816

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2013, 11:51:46 AM »
If they were two best players in the World and Rafa were able to play his best game for the entire year, they' have tons of matches. And most of the matches being outside clay would would lead to Nole catching Rafa in H2H.

But right now it's hard for Rafa to get to semis/finals outside clay, making most Noledal matches being played on clay. That makes it difficult for Nole to catch Rafa.

I wouldn't be so sure. The last hard court tourney they both played, Nadal won, Djoker lost in the semis  :whistle:

Rafa is the FIRST to qualify for WTF this year! :D

Offline Swish

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2013, 06:22:11 PM »
If they were two best players in the World and Rafa were able to play his best game for the entire year, they' have tons of matches. And most of the matches being outside clay would would lead to Nole catching Rafa in H2H.

But right now it's hard for Rafa to get to semis/finals outside clay, making most Noledal matches being played on clay. That makes it difficult for Nole to catch Rafa.

I wouldn't be so sure. The last hard court tourney they both played, Nadal won, Djoker lost in the semis  :whistle:

Nadal got lucky that DelPo was tired.
In the first set DelPo was all over Nadal and had a break up in the second.
 
Nadal didn't get lucky at MC.
 
Djokovic is making inroads on clay and already has hard courts.
 
The question is when he will pass Nadal, I'm saying sometime in 2014.
 
 
 
 

Offline Clay Death

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2013, 06:30:56 PM »
nadal got more than just lucky. he played roger who had a terrible back. I saw that match.
 
roger could barely walk or stand up straight.
 
it was a horrible mistake for nadal to show up here. evidently he is just too damn stupid to see that his clay dominance has been slipping away.
 
even a dramatic drop in rankings cant clear anything up for him.
 
for the sake of greed and for the sake of his infatuation for hard courts he gave up his only greatest competitive advantage which was complete dominance on clay.
 
 
once nole takes that way from him too, there is no place for nadal to turn to. I guess he can go back to being fat and happy.
 
why not play endless poker and golf instead of fighting and competing against the greatest warriors on the battlefield.

Offline Swish

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2013, 06:55:48 PM »
nadal got more than just lucky. he played roger who had a terrible back. I saw that match.
 
roger could barely walk or stand up straight.
 
it was a horrible mistake for nadal to show up here. evidently he is just too damn stupid to see that his clay dominance has been slipping away.
 
even a dramatic drop in rankings cant clear anything up for him.
 
for the sake of greed and for the sake of his infatuation for hard courts he gave up his only greatest competitive advantage which was complete dominance on clay.
 
 
once nole takes that way from him too, there is no place for nadal to turn to. I guess he can go back to being fat and happy.
 
why not play endless poker and golf instead of fighting and competing against the greatest warriors on the battlefield.

I can hardly believe that Federer played that day, that was the worst shape I've ever seen him play in.
 
 
Nadal shoud have skipped IW but he knows Larry Ellison.
 
His knees weren't as bad as people believe, he was going to play the AO but had some stomach virus.
So he was ready to play since around December last year.
 
He may have been ready even before that.
 
 
Even now Nadal is losing his clay court dominance, it started to break down in 2011.
We'll have to see what this year brings.
 
Rome will be important.
 
 
 
 

Offline Rafa816

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2013, 07:11:17 PM »
If they were two best players in the World and Rafa were able to play his best game for the entire year, they' have tons of matches. And most of the matches being outside clay would would lead to Nole catching Rafa in H2H.

But right now it's hard for Rafa to get to semis/finals outside clay, making most Noledal matches being played on clay. That makes it difficult for Nole to catch Rafa.

I wouldn't be so sure. The last hard court tourney they both played, Nadal won, Djoker lost in the semis  :whistle:

Nadal got lucky that DelPo was tired.
In the first set DelPo was all over Nadal and had a break up in the second.
 
Nadal didn't get lucky at MC.
 
Djokovic is making inroads on clay and already has hard courts.
 
The question is when he will pass Nadal, I'm saying sometime in 2014.

Lucky? Really? Del Po is always tired. His fitness is terrible. And Nadal contributed to tiring him out because of how he's tweaked his play recently to wear people out more during points and then end them quicker. And Djoker won the first set and still couldn't beat Del Po's sub par fitness. Nadal lost the first set and still won. Nole went into the second set ahead and lost. Rafa went into the second set behind and won. Dunno how much clearer that can be that Nadal did better. No, he didn't get lucky at MC. If anything, he got unlucky. Rain right before the final made the conditions heavier, which favors Nole. Personally, I don't think Nole will catch up in the rivalry, but I could be wrong.

nadal got more than just lucky. he played roger who had a terrible back. I saw that match.
 
roger could barely walk or stand up straight.
 
it was a horrible mistake for nadal to show up here. evidently he is just too damn stupid to see that his clay dominance has been slipping away.
 
even a dramatic drop in rankings cant clear anything up for him.
 
for the sake of greed and for the sake of his infatuation for hard courts he gave up his only greatest competitive advantage which was complete dominance on clay.
 
 
once nole takes that way from him too, there is no place for nadal to turn to. I guess he can go back to being fat and happy.
 
why not play endless poker and golf instead of fighting and competing against the greatest warriors on the battlefield.

Wow.

nadal got more than just lucky. he played roger who had a terrible back. I saw that match.
 
roger could barely walk or stand up straight.
 
it was a horrible mistake for nadal to show up here. evidently he is just too damn stupid to see that his clay dominance has been slipping away.
 
even a dramatic drop in rankings cant clear anything up for him.
 
for the sake of greed and for the sake of his infatuation for hard courts he gave up his only greatest competitive advantage which was complete dominance on clay.
 
 
once nole takes that way from him too, there is no place for nadal to turn to. I guess he can go back to being fat and happy.
 
why not play endless poker and golf instead of fighting and competing against the greatest warriors on the battlefield.

I can hardly believe that Federer played that day, that was the worst shape I've ever seen him play in.
 
 
Nadal shoud have skipped IW but he knows Larry Ellison.
 
His knees weren't as bad as people believe, he was going to play the AO but had some stomach virus.
So he was ready to play since around December last year.
 
He may have been ready even before that.
 
 
Even now Nadal is losing his clay court dominance, it started to break down in 2011.
We'll have to see what this year brings.
 
Rome will be important.

People are blowing it all out of proportion in my opinion. Saying it started to break down in 2011 is odd, considering he won the French Open that year and everything on clay except the awful blue clay tourney in 2012. And now Nole wins one of the clay tourneys against Nadal and everyone is talking again about how Rafa isn't as dominant on clay anymore. We'll see this time next month how the rest of the clay season plays out. If Nadal loses at RG, we'll talk. Otherwise, I'd say Rafa is still the king of clay.

Rafa is the FIRST to qualify for WTF this year! :D

Offline Clay Death

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Re: Can Djokovic Overtake The Rivalry With Nadal?
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2013, 07:19:43 PM »
rafa is not losing RG.
 
 
and he will forever be the king of clay. now nothing and nobody can take that away from him.
 
 
you have to have 8 RG crowns, 9 Monte Carlo titles, 7 Rome masters titles, 7 or 8 Barcelona titles and then you can be the new king of clay.
 
 
since the sport is demanding and becoming more demanding with each passing week, nadal`s records on clay never even be approached, much less be equaled.