Poll

Who will win Mens French Open?

Nadal
8 (38.1%)
Djokovic
5 (23.8%)
Federer
4 (19%)
Berlocq
2 (9.5%)
Other
2 (9.5%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: June 09, 2013, 01:59:44 PM

Author Topic: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2  (Read 25759 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #240 on: May 29, 2013, 11:57:06 AM »
Without taking anything away from Monfils, Gulbis is an idiot. Well that's the first thought that comes to me. I guess in reality it just shows he has a lot more work to do and build up his consistency and mental fortitude. I'm sorry but if you want to be top 10 at this point, you cannot lose to Monfils who's been out with injuries and has very little match play at the highest level for a while now. And the fact that it's the French Open and Monfils is the underdog and has the crowd support means very little. Shame on Gulbis and Berdych. But great victories for Monfils. It's like he's putting together a dream run, a win over Berdych is legit.

Monfils is a clown though. It's RG so he's in high spirit. In the big picture, he's the most useless player out there.
You are everything I am not.

Offline Rafa816

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 702
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #241 on: May 29, 2013, 12:21:00 PM »
Federer's success on clay is never clear cut and Nadal is never the clay GOAT. These terms are completely subjective as you can never compare these results across the eras. Whoever claims such a thing is intellectually dense.
Federer had only Nadal to deal with on clay and he was handed a loss each time.

These are all typical Fedaltards claims as I see it.

Federer's success on clay IS clear cut. A 3-time finalist and 1-time champion of RG is good enough to say he's good on clay. But then add to that that he's also a 2-time winner and 6-time finalist at clay Masters titles as well. He's definitely a very accomplished clay court player. And you may say Nadal is never the clay GOAT. But his stats and 90% of people, including many tennis experts, analysts, and announcers, disagree with you.

Federer has 2 victories against Nadal on clay. So he wasn't handed a loss each time.

I am not a Fed fan, I assure you. If anything, I'm a Fed hater. But I still respect the caliber of player he is.

If you discount his victories against Federer and against Djokovic on hard courts, then who on earth is he supposed to defeat on hard to prove to you he is good on hard courts?

In other news, Federer is clearly struggling on clay. He's already dropped three games to Somdev and already played for 70 mins and he's only up 6-2 6-1 3-0.

 :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :rofl_2:
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 12:22:05 PM by Rafa816 »

Rafa is the FIRST to qualify for WTF this year! :D

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #242 on: May 29, 2013, 12:51:05 PM »

Federer's success on clay IS clear cut. A 3-time finalist and 1-time champion of RG is good enough to say he's good on clay. But then add to that that he's also a 2-time winner and 6-time finalist at clay Masters titles as well. He's definitely a very accomplished clay court player. And you may say Nadal is never the clay GOAT. But his stats and 90% of people, including many tennis experts, analysts, and announcers, disagree with you.

Federer has 2 victories against Nadal on clay. So he wasn't handed a loss each time.

I am not a Fed fan, I assure you. If anything, I'm a Fed hater. But I still respect the caliber of player he is.

If you discount his victories against Federer and against Djokovic on hard courts, then who on earth is he supposed to defeat on hard to prove to you he is good on hard courts?

I am not sure why you'd read my assessment of Federer's success on clay as 'poor'. I never said that. I said and if you read properly, it's comparatively poor if you take his success on other surfaces. That was the main element in Masterclass' post. He was comparing Murray's success on clay against his success on the other two surfaces. In fact, Federer's achievement on clay probably doesn't even account to 30% of his total success overall. Your problem is, you are totally failing to grasp the main debating point here.

And it doesn't matter what critics say about Federer or even Nadal. They all tend to get carried away when it comes to Federer and Nadal to lesser extent. In the right sense of mind where one can afford to be objective, one would always agree that it's virtually impossible to compare across eras. It's a very dense try. So neither claim is valid no matter how much anyone wants to hear such a fairy tale.

And Federer's two victories on clay did not come at a Major level which was my point. Again, you are failing to grasp any point I am trying to make thus far. 

I only discount Nadal's victories over Federer. Never said Nole. Nole leads Nadal on hard courts 10-4. He had lost 2010 USO to Nadal in the final but not only he had a tough match against Federer in the previous round but also, he had a terribly flat year in 2010 in general. Nadal has to beat Nole on hard since 2011.

Bottom line, both are great players however clay is Federer least favourite surface and hard-court is for Nadal. Though they have both seen good success on those respective surfaces, both Nole and Murray are still in the middle of their career and itís just too early to compare their results by those of Nadal and Federer. But Iíve already admitted that Noleís worst surface is grass despite his win at Wimbledon in 2011 and Murray on clay. Murray is probably the poorest on clay among top four given their each worst surface, but there are lots of hidden elements there including all those Iíve cited so far.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 12:56:14 PM by Emma »
You are everything I am not.

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #243 on: May 29, 2013, 12:55:36 PM »
Are you guys actually celebrating Federer's win over Somdev Devvarman? He's ranked 188 and has yet to win a single career title.  :rofl_2:
You are everything I am not.

Offline pawan89

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8501
  • Gender: Male
    • Onset of Chaos
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #244 on: May 29, 2013, 01:05:00 PM »
Are you guys actually celebrating Federer's win over Somdev Devvarman? He's ranked 188 and has yet to win a single career title.  :rofl_2:

I thought your sarcasm and humor detector was better than this. Either you're way off your game, or I clearly have no game if you think I was actually celebrating Federer's win over SD.   :)~


Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #245 on: May 29, 2013, 01:15:16 PM »
Are you guys actually celebrating Federer's win over Somdev Devvarman? He's ranked 188 and has yet to win a single career title.  :rofl_2:

I thought your sarcasm and humor detector was better than this. Either you're way off your game, or I clearly have no game if you think I was actually celebrating Federer's win over SD.   :)~

I got your sarcasm, dearest and know exactly in what context the pun was made and in fact, for that reason I found it quite hilarious. Let's just say I did not use the word 'celebrating' in the right context but then again, I didn't want to be too obvious.  :)~
You are everything I am not.

Offline Rafa816

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 702
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #246 on: May 29, 2013, 01:17:16 PM »

Federer's success on clay IS clear cut. A 3-time finalist and 1-time champion of RG is good enough to say he's good on clay. But then add to that that he's also a 2-time winner and 6-time finalist at clay Masters titles as well. He's definitely a very accomplished clay court player. And you may say Nadal is never the clay GOAT. But his stats and 90% of people, including many tennis experts, analysts, and announcers, disagree with you.

Federer has 2 victories against Nadal on clay. So he wasn't handed a loss each time.

I am not a Fed fan, I assure you. If anything, I'm a Fed hater. But I still respect the caliber of player he is.

If you discount his victories against Federer and against Djokovic on hard courts, then who on earth is he supposed to defeat on hard to prove to you he is good on hard courts?

I am not sure why you'd read my assessment of Federer's success on clay as 'poor'. I never said that. I said and if you read properly, it's comparatively poor if you take his success on other surfaces. That was the main element in Masterclass' post. He was comparing Murray's success on clay against his success on the other two surfaces. In fact, Federer's achievement on clay probably doesn't even account to 30% of his total success overall. Your problem is, you are totally failing to grasp the main debating point here.

And it doesn't matter what critics say about Federer or even Nadal. They all tend to get carried away when it comes to Federer and Nadal to lesser extent. In the right sense of mind where one can afford to be objective, one would always agree that it's virtually impossible to compare across eras. It's a very dense try. So neither claim is valid no matter how much anyone wants to hear such a fairy tale.

And Federer's two victories on clay did not come at a Major level which was my point. Again, you are failing to grasp any point I am trying to make thus far. 

I only discount Nadal's victories over Federer. Never said Nole. Nole leads Nadal on hard courts 10-4. He had lost 2010 USO to Nadal in the final but not only he had a tough match against Federer in the previous round but also, he had a terribly flat year in 2010 in general. Nadal has to beat Nole on hard since 2011.

Bottom line, both are great players however clay is Federer least favourite surface and hard-court is for Nadal. Though they have both seen good success on those respective surfaces, both Nole and Murray are still in the middle of their career and itís just too early to compare their results by those of Nadal and Federer. But Iíve already admitted that Noleís worst surface is grass despite his win at Wimbledon in 2011 and Murray on clay. Murray is probably the poorest on clay among top four given their each worst surface, but there are lots of hidden elements there including all those Iíve cited so far.

I never read it as poor. But you acted like it wasn't that great and that his success isn't clear cut. But it is. Those kind of stats on any surface are pretty amazing, especially when you have, err, an extremely good (happy?) clay court player that you have to face. Maybe I am missing it. But you never talked about comparatively or relatively. You called out Nadal's only title as a fluke and said Federer wasn't clearly successful on clay. I was simply countering those two points. I never said they were just as good on hard (for Nadal) or clay (for Fed) as they were on other surfaces. That is obviously an impossible statement to make.

Is it more likely that many tennis analysts and announcers that have played and watched the sport for decades are getting carried away about a 17-time slam winner and someone who has 7 slam titles and 18 masters titles on clay, or that you are undermining their success? Considering analysts have the numbers and experience advantage, I would say that the latter is much more likely. Based on their success, almost anything the analysts have to say about them, almost regardless of how grandiose it is, is justified. Yeah, it's hard to compare across eras. But if you look at what the Big 4 have accomplished, despite having each other as challenges, it's hard to discount their success, especially when it's as epic as Fed's success or Nadal's clay success.

Masters tournaments aren't to be overlooked. If you only count majors, you seem like a casual tennis fan.

If you look at the match they played in the 2010 final, though, it's obvious that Nole was not playing badly. Nadal was just playing incredibly well. He played incredibly well the entire tournament. And if you look at the 2012 AO final, you can again see that Nadal is definitely accomplished on hard courts. No, he didn't win the tournament, but he came pretty dang close against the greatest hard court player in the moment. You don't have to be the best on a surface to be good on it.

I never said clay wasn't Fed's worst or that hard court wasn't Nadal's. Exactly. They have both seen a large amount of success on those surfaces. That was the point I was trying to make, because in your original post, you didn't give them that credit. You credited Nadal's success to a fluke and said that Fed didn't have clear success. I was simply calling out those statements.

Rafa is the FIRST to qualify for WTF this year! :D

Offline pawan89

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8501
  • Gender: Male
    • Onset of Chaos
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #247 on: May 29, 2013, 01:35:48 PM »
A couple thoughts on today's matches and upcoming matches.

Federer d. Somdev - no surprises here. Next round should be tad more interesting against Benneteau but Bennetau just played a 5 setter and is also in the 30s club, so we'll see how he holds up. But he has had success against Fed before and he'll have the crowd. I'll say Fed in straights or at best in 4.

Then things will get interesting with Simon who's a hit or miss against Fed and has his best results against him on hard courts. If on the other hand it's Querrey then he'll pose no problems for Fed.

Querrey and Cilic - both through in straights. Querrey on clay, impressive. Cilic winning.. impressive. I like Cilic, wish he wasn't such a pushover, such a classic game.

Upcoming matches:

Tsonga vs. Chardy - French crowd should be happy. Tsonga should have the upper hand clearly but Chardy has had some upsets in the past.

Ferrer vs. Lopez - The Spanish counterpart of the Tsonga vs. Chardy match. Ferrer should come through no problem.

Raonic vs. Anderson - Let the serves fly! The winner will be the one who has a better mastery over their groundies. Should be a good indicator for both.

Monfils actually has a makeable path to the quarters, but he also has to go through two accomplished spanish clay courters Robredo and Almagro.  I think he'll fall against Almagro.

Haas vs. Sock - Haas's experience should prevail. Maybe even his fitness, we'll see.

Harrison vs. Isner - A win for Harrison could indicate a step ahead in his journey to be the top American. A loss leaves the status quo for both.


Offline Rafa816

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 702
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #248 on: May 29, 2013, 03:54:53 PM »
I think Haas vs. Sock will be interesting. Sock played a very good match against GGL, and Haas is always a toss up. It all depends on which one is the more consistent of the two, in my opinion, for they both have had consistency problems.

Harrison vs. Isner will be a fun match to watch. Two hard hitters. I'm rooting for Harrison personally. I really like him, and Isner has been pissing me off lately with how error-filled his game has been since coming back from injury. Obviously understandable, but still annoying. But Isner has started to look better recently, so I don't know how much of a chance Harrison has against him. Either way, it'll be fun to watch.

Rafa is the FIRST to qualify for WTF this year! :D

Offline oracle86

  • Tennis Pro
  • *****
  • Posts: 374
  • Gender: Female
  • The Mystery Knight
    • Twitter
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #249 on: May 29, 2013, 04:53:46 PM »
Emma's comments about Federer never cease to crack me up and the latest one is no exception.

As of today, Federer has won 56 matches at RG. Others in the 45+wins club include Vilas and Pietrangeli (tied at 58 each), Nadal and Lendl (tied at 53 each), Agassi (51), Borg (49), Wilander (47). With the exception of Agassi, each and everyone of them are acknowledged as clay greats. And even Agassi won once and was a losing finalist once.

If Rafa didn't exist, Roger would have won RG in 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2011 too. 2008 is a query - he could have lost to Nole that year.

I would easily put Roger in the Top 5 claycourters ever - alongwith Borg, Nadal, Kuerten and Vilas. 
''If somebody says I am better than Roger, I think this person don't know nothing about tennis'' - Rafael Nadal


Offline Orange Wombat

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 744
  • Welcome to T4U!
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #250 on: May 29, 2013, 04:57:11 PM »
I think Haas vs. Sock will be interesting. Sock played a very good match against GGL, and Haas is always a toss up. It all depends on which one is the more consistent of the two, in my opinion, for they both have had consistency problems.

Harrison vs. Isner will be a fun match to watch. Two hard hitters. I'm rooting for Harrison personally. I really like him, and Isner has been pissing me off lately with how error-filled his game has been since coming back from injury. Obviously understandable, but still annoying. But Isner has started to look better recently, so I don't know how much of a chance Harrison has against him. Either way, it'll be fun to watch.


No  :rofl_2: Harrison is anything but a hard hitter. He loves to moonball with a lot of topspin

Davis Cup Highlights: Jo-Wilfried Tsonga v Ryan Harrison


And matches with Isner are rarely fun :dunno:

Offline Clay Death

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 16589
  • Gender: Male
  • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
    • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #251 on: May 29, 2013, 05:10:19 PM »
Nice symmetrical win of Tursunov over Dolgopolov. 7-6(7) 6-4 7-6(7)  :king:

Goffin played well, but very one-dimensional. It's too hard to beat Djokovic just by out-baselining him.
How on earth is that symmetrical??? The '4' keeps poking me in the eye!!! :mad1:  It should be a 6. ;-()



 :)) :)) :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :rofl_2:

Offline monstertruck

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 12367
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #252 on: May 29, 2013, 05:17:11 PM »
Emma's comments about Federer never cease to crack me up and the latest one is no exception.

As of today, Federer has won 56 matches at RG. Others in the 45+wins club include Vilas and Pietrangeli (tied at 58 each), Nadal and Lendl (tied at 53 each), Agassi (51), Borg (49), Wilander (47). With the exception of Agassi, each and everyone of them are acknowledged as clay greats. And even Agassi won once and was a losing finalist once.

If Rafa didn't exist, Roger would have won RG in 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2011 too. 2008 is a query - he could have lost to Nole that year.

I would easily put Roger in the Top 5 claycourters ever - alongwith Borg, Nadal, Kuerten and Vilas.
Yes (but in a good way) & yes.
To thoroughly discredit Fed's clay court prowess just because he can't beat Nadal is a tough sell.  Who else is using Nadal for a punching bag on clay??? :confused1:
CONK da ball!!!

Offline pawan89

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8501
  • Gender: Male
    • Onset of Chaos
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #253 on: May 29, 2013, 05:43:19 PM »
Emma's comments about Federer never cease to crack me up and the latest one is no exception.

As of today, Federer has won 56 matches at RG. Others in the 45+wins club include Vilas and Pietrangeli (tied at 58 each), Nadal and Lendl (tied at 53 each), Agassi (51), Borg (49), Wilander (47). With the exception of Agassi, each and everyone of them are acknowledged as clay greats. And even Agassi won once and was a losing finalist once.

If Rafa didn't exist, Roger would have won RG in 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2011 too. 2008 is a query - he could have lost to Nole that year.

I would easily put Roger in the Top 5 claycourters ever - alongwith Borg, Nadal, Kuerten and Vilas.
Yes (but in a good way) & yes.
To thoroughly discredit Fed's clay court prowess just because he can't beat Nadal is a tough sell.  Who else is using Nadal for a punching bag on clay??? :confused1:

Didn't want to get into this discussion but why not, I'll give it a shot. Obviously a Fed fanboy here but figured I'd defend Emma a little.. not that she needs it.

She does say that Federer is only relatively sub par on clay, and it's true compared to his results on hard /grass courts (16 majors to 1 on clay)? It's almost like you stick around long enough and you're bound to win a French Open and that's what Federer did. If we go by straight up results then this is absolutely true, as Emma so kindly points out with two additional remarks:

Quote
In fact, Federer's achievement on clay probably doesn't even account to 30% of his total success overall.
Quote
Federer had only Nadal to deal with on clay and he was handed a loss each time.

Both are very true. Unfortunately, to consider Fed a "success" on clay, as relative a term as that might be, you really do have to dig into more than just the Wins he has had and actually consider the runs he's made - something posterity won't bother doing.

Even with that said, his results are easily top 10 on clay, all time. Would like to see how his stats hold up here. As Oracle pointed out, his 56 match win total at RG - undoubtedly will reach 60 before he retires puts him at #1 for most RG wins and will only be surpassed by Nadal. Clearly he's a success, a clear cut success

Although I still question some of her remarks, such as this one:

Quote
Once Nole gets a win over Nadal at RG, he will surpass Federerís success on clay by a good margin.

Really? He might come close given he's actually beaten Nadal at Monte Carlo, Madrid and Rome (Federer has only beaten Nadal in Hamburg and Madrid), but to say he's better by a margin is thoroughly discrediting Federer for all the success he has had in making finals while Novak was busy losing to non-Nadals of the tour on clay.


Offline huntingyou

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 2601
  • Gender: Male
  • #18
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #254 on: May 29, 2013, 06:04:59 PM »
after all these years, Emma never get's tired of trolling Federer and Rafa fans alike; it's impressive.




I thought this board was immune to it.......remains to be seen.


- Federer is third best clay courter in the Open era (behind Nadal and Borg)
- Nadal's success on hardcourts alone makes him a Hall of Fame champion
- Murray's credential on clay is beyond pathetic given his caliber and overall pedigree




BTW, it should be illegal to cause problems sporting such a nice Audrey avi   :)>>>>















Offline Swish

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 10324
  • Gender: Male
  • How Many Times?
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #255 on: May 29, 2013, 06:18:37 PM »
Most tennis historians put Fed in the top 5 or top 10.
 
Hard to rate him is the problem, everyone looks at slam wins and he only has one.
 
So the other way to do it is to look at who he lost to for more data, so this way of looking at it helps.
 
I think it was seven year span at RG and his only losses there was to Nadal and one to Soderling in that stretch.
 
Now look at who could have done better and the list becomes much smaller and puts him up on the list quite a bit.
 
 
 

Offline Clay Death

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 16589
  • Gender: Male
  • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
    • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #256 on: May 29, 2013, 06:23:35 PM »
emma general huntingyou just called you a troll.
 
 :)) :)) :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :hysterical: :hysterical:
 
 
you better put him in the dog house for 3 days.

Offline Clay Death

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 16589
  • Gender: Male
  • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
    • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #257 on: May 29, 2013, 06:25:27 PM »
after all these years, Emma never get's tired of trolling Federer and Rafa fans alike; it's impressive.




I thought this board was immune to it.......remains to be seen.


- Federer is third best clay courter in the Open era (behind Nadal and Borg)
- Nadal's success on hardcourts alone makes him a Hall of Fame champion
- Murray's credential on clay is beyond pathetic given his caliber and overall pedigree




BTW, it should be illegal to cause problems sporting such a nice Audrey avi   :)>>>>




negative.



I would have to rate Agassi, lendl, and kuerten higher than roger on clay.

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #258 on: May 29, 2013, 06:28:31 PM »

I never read it as poor. But you acted like it wasn't that great and that his success isn't clear cut. But it is. Those kind of stats on any surface are pretty amazing, especially when you have, err, an extremely good (happy?) clay court player that you have to face. Maybe I am missing it. But you never talked about comparatively or relatively. You called out Nadal's only title as a fluke and said Federer wasn't clearly successful on clay. [/b]I was simply countering those two points. I never said they were just as good on hard (for Nadal) or clay (for Fed) as they were on other surfaces. That is obviously an impossible statement to make.

Is it more likely that many tennis analysts and announcers that have played and watched the sport for decades are getting carried away about a 17-time slam winner and someone who has 7 slam titles and 18 masters titles on clay, or that you are undermining their success? Considering analysts have the numbers and experience advantage, I would say that the latter is much more likely. Based on their success, almost anything the analysts have to say about them, almost regardless of how grandiose it is, is justified. Yeah, it's hard to compare across eras. But if you look at what the Big 4 have accomplished, despite having each other as challenges, it's hard to discount their success, especially when it's as epic as Fed's success or Nadal's clay success.

Masters tournaments aren't to be overlooked. If you only count majors, you seem like a casual tennis fan.

If you look at the match they played in the 2010 final, though, it's obvious that Nole was not playing badly. Nadal was just playing incredibly well. He played incredibly well the entire tournament. And if you look at the 2012 AO final, you can again see that Nadal is definitely accomplished on hard courts. No, he didn't win the tournament, but he came pretty dang close against the greatest hard court player in the moment. You don't have to be the best on a surface to be good on it.

I never said clay wasn't Fed's worst or that hard court wasn't Nadal's. Exactly. They have both seen a large amount of success on those surfaces. That was the point I was trying to make, because in your original post, you didn't give them that credit. You credited Nadal's success to a fluke and said that Fed didn't have clear success. I was simply calling out those statements.

I didn't but Masterclass did and I was debating that point only. That's in fact the whole discussion here for me. What happened is that you simply skimmed my post and got stuck at the words 'Nadal' and 'fluke'. That's a very tardish behaviour btw.

The reason why I brought Nadal's career up is to show that his success on hard court Majors came much later in his career, 2009 to be specific whereas his success on clay came much earlier, in 2005. And his two Major wins on hard courts were blessed with kind draws where he didn't have to meet any true hard courters. Nole was too spent after the semi. I never take Federer into account when he plays Nadal. The guy hasn't seen a win against Nadal in a Major since 2008. But my point is and was, hard court is Nadal's least favourite surface as unlike clay and grass, he had to wait for a long time to see a win in a Slam and there are 2 hard court Slams, so there were plenty opportunities there fore him.

Similarly, I brought Federer up to show that clay is his least favourite surface. Why but he was ranked 5 and 1 in 2003 and 2004, and yet he got soundly beaten by Horna (who btw never got past the 3rd of any Slam in his entire career) in the very 1st round. But that didn't stop Federer winning Wimbledon that very year. The following year, in 2004, Federer again won the AO, Wimbledon and USO and got soundly beaten by Kuerten in the 3rd round at RG. And Nadal was nowhere near to be found around that time. So what are your excuses there? Do you want me to go on? Anyway, this shows how his success on clay came much later, in 2009 to be specific. And he beat A Martin, Acasuso, Paul-Henri Mathieu, Haas, Monfils, Del Potro and Soderling to win that RG. Again, it wasn't Nadal he was up against. And in that line, the first 3 players never made past the 4th round in their entire career. And Monfils and Del Potro were still coming into their own terms but still both Haas and Del Potro had pushed him to the final set. Soderling was just too happy to take Nadal out by the time he reached the final. Next year he did take Federer out to make my final point. Bottom line, clay is Federer least favourite surface and to include him with all the clay greats is nothing but a very desperate attempt.

And that's also why I said that grass is Nole's worst surface. Despite his win in 2011, he will have to do consistently well on grass to claim that he's great on it. who knows that Wimbledon might as well be a fluke. This will get Alex get all worked up, but hey.

Very recently, on MW, in a clay discussion I put Murray outside top 20. Some members got upset but while Andy has his own issues and priorities, he still hasn't established any solid result to claim his spot on clay to be in top 15. But if you give Murray the kind of draw Federer has now at this RG or the kind of draws Nadal had in 2009 AO and 2010 USO, he would be able to do wonders with it too, but that wouldn't mean he's the ultimate clay player. It would mean he got lucky.

Oh, and the reason why I took Slams into account and not Masters is because a Slam is your final place to show who's the best. A player who's won 25 Masters and has never won a Slam will not be remembered as much as someone who's won 6 Slams and 4 Masters. Majors are your ultimate criteria to judge where a player stands in terms of skills and mental ability.

Oh, and I've been watching tennis since 1994 and I know more than you think.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 06:37:00 PM by Emma »
You are everything I am not.

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #259 on: May 29, 2013, 06:38:37 PM »
emma general huntingyou just called you a troll.
 
 :)) :)) :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :hysterical: :hysterical:
 
 
you better put him in the dog house for 3 days.

And he trolls me. That never seem to tire him, eh. I mean where was he all this time?  :rofl_2:

But good old times, yes.  :)~
You are everything I am not.