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Who will win Mens French Open?

Nadal
8 (38.1%)
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4 (19%)
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2 (9.5%)
Other
2 (9.5%)

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Voting closed: June 09, 2013, 01:59:44 PM

Author Topic: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2  (Read 20863 times)

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Offline Emma

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #260 on: May 29, 2013, 06:41:51 PM »
emma general huntingyou just called you a troll.
 
 :)) :)) :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :hysterical: :hysterical:
 
 
you better put him in the dog house for 3 days.

Haven't decided on the punishment yet. Just for making that post he should be on his knees begging for mercy.

I shall think about whether I want to forgive him or not.
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Offline masterclass

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #261 on: May 29, 2013, 06:44:25 PM »
The point that Mr. Murray is a relative non-factor on clay does not belittle the fact that he has been an overall excellent player to this point.  He certainly is. And his career is not over yet. He may get better, he may not.  He is much like Pete Sampras in terms of his clay surface weakness relative to himself AND others, but he is below Sampras' degree of quality (class) on the other surfaces, so far.

We can talk about other players surface weaknesses and strengths,  but debating about others doesn't support or disprove the point of the original subject - Murray, it is only serves as a distortion or distraction, take your pick.

In the Open Era, there are probably only a handful of players that I would truly consider outstanding "all surface players" and in my judgement they weren't only the players who have the Career Grand Slam, and having a Career Grand Slam doesn't necessarily make one an outstanding all surface player.

An outstanding all surface player doesn't mean they are or have to be absolutely equally strong on all surfaces. They can have weaker surfaces than the others, but they still must be strong relative to the other players; within the top players in the Open Era in each category (top 15). Rafael Nadal is an example of someone that has an almost unbelievable strength on clay, but is still highly rated in the others, even though weaker than his unbelievable clay record. On the other hand, Murray and Sampras are examples of ones who have a weak record on clay compared to their record on other surfaces, AND a poor record on clay compared to others on clay.

Also, just because one is not an outstanding all surface player, it doesn't mean one can't be an outstanding player overall. There is no shame in not being an all surface player. It is what it is.

Here is my list of 5 outstanding all surface players (others' criteria may differ :) ):

Rod Laver - played when 3 of 4 majors were on grass, but won numerous indoor (wood, carpet) and outdoor hard court tournaments and several clay titles (other than the 2 at Roland Garros - 1 in OE)

carpet:  12 titles, 8th ranked in Open Era match win pct. -  .758
clay: 6 titles, 9th ranked  - .771
grass: 6 titles, 3rd ranked - .849
hard: 17 titles, 4th ranked - .824

Jimmy Connors - didn't win the French Open, but won the US Open on clay, hard court and grass (the only man to do so) and won several other clay titles.  Probably the best all surface player - ranked from 3rd to 6th in the Open Era on all surfaces.

carpet: 39 titles, 4th ranked - .821
clay: 12 titles, 6th ranked - .776
grass: 9 titles, 6th ranked .833
hard: 44 titles,  3rd ranked- .824

Bjorn Borg - never won the US Open - but was a 4 time finalist there, and won many hard court and carpet titles. Australian Open? Forget it. Many ignored it at the time (except Australians).

carpet: 22 titles, 3rd ranked - .826
clay: 30 titles, 2nd ranked - .863
grass: 6 titles, 4th ranked - .847
hard: 6 titles, 13th ranked - .767

Roger Federer - still active

carpet: 2 titles, 10th ranked  - .725
clay:  10 titles, 12th ranked - .769
grass: 12 titles, 1st ranked - .873
hard: 52 titles, 1st ranked - .829

Rafael Nadal - still active

carpet: 0 titles, no ranking - .250 (only 8 matches played - I won't count this category- but some may object including him in the list).
clay: 41 titles, 1st ranked - .931
grass: 3 titles, 9th ranked - .806
hard: 12 titles, 12th ranked - .768

Honorable mention goes to Ken Rosewall.
His clay (5th) and grass (11th) results were up there, but he ranks 20th on hard court and 16th on carpet. He still won 7 titles on hard court and 5 on carpet, so it's a tough call.  If I changed the criteria to top 20 instead of top 15, he makes it.  Hopefully, I didn't miss anyone else... :)

The rest usually had one significantly weaker surface (Sampras), or were mostly single surface specialists (Muster), or even though proficient on all surfaces were not ranked high enough (Agassi) in all categories to be considered outstanding by my criteria.

Respectfully,
masterclass





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Offline Emma

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #262 on: May 29, 2013, 06:45:22 PM »
after all these years, Emma never get's tired of trolling Federer and Rafa fans alike; it's impressive.




I thought this board was immune to it.......remains to be seen.


- Federer is third best clay courter in the Open era (behind Nadal and Borg)
- Nadal's success on hardcourts alone makes him a Hall of Fame champion
- Murray's credential on clay is beyond pathetic given his caliber and overall pedigree




BTW, it should be illegal to cause problems sporting such a nice Audrey avi   :)>>>>

Careful, eh big guy? I remember what you said when Nadal was down and out in a PM or email. You almost became a non Nadal fan back then, you prick.  :)~ :)>>>>
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Offline Emma

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #263 on: May 29, 2013, 06:54:56 PM »
The point that Mr. Murray is a relative non-factor on clay does not belittle the fact that he has been an overall excellent player to this point.  He certainly is. And his career is not over yet. He may get better, he may not.  He is much like Pete Sampras in terms of his clay surface weakness relative to himself AND others, but he is below Sampras' degree of quality (class) on the other surfaces, so far.

We can talk about other players surface weaknesses and strengths,  but debating about others doesn't support or disprove the point of the original subject - Murray, it is only serves as a distortion or distraction, take your pick.


Well, you can definitely act all holier than thou if you want but the point I was making is very simple - no player in history is equally great on all surfaces and everyone pretty much has their weak surface no matter how great they are in overall terms. Also, stats never tell the whole story. There's always much more than just meet the eyes. Murray, in terms of the other top three, he still has a long way to go and I'd never compare his achievements to those., especially when his career is not even half way there. Again, the real point is, it's okay if Murray is very poor on clay right now, he can still achieve a lot more on other surfaces. No one is expecting him to pull a Sampras here, but he can still go and achieve his own - whatever that is. He still has 7 years left in him - give or take. And as I always say, everything is subject to change. Nothing is written in stone. Many thought he'd never win a Slam but he's one now under his belt. And he beat such a line up as Raonic, Cilic, Berdych and Nole - all true hard courters.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 07:07:03 PM by Emma »
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Offline Clay Death

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #264 on: May 29, 2013, 07:01:25 PM »
emma get your sorry ass over to the castle and say hello at least before I hunt you down personally and hang you upside down for a couple of hours.
 
 
even your momentary appearance lights up the castle for a month.
 
 
 :)) :))

Offline Emma

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #265 on: May 29, 2013, 07:06:19 PM »

Both are very true. Unfortunately, to consider Fed a "success" on clay, as relative a term as that might be, you really do have to dig into more than just the Wins he has had and actually consider the runs he's made - something posterity won't bother doing.

Even with that said, his results are easily top 10 on clay, all time. Would like to see how his stats hold up here. As Oracle pointed out, his 56 match win total at RG - undoubtedly will reach 60 before he retires puts him at #1 for most RG wins and will only be surpassed by Nadal. Clearly he's a success, a clear cut success

Although I still question some of her remarks, such as this one:

Quote
Once Nole gets a win over Nadal at RG, he will surpass Federerís success on clay by a good margin.

Really? He might come close given he's actually beaten Nadal at Monte Carlo, Madrid and Rome (Federer has only beaten Nadal in Hamburg and Madrid), but to say he's better by a margin is thoroughly discrediting Federer for all the success he has had in making finals while Novak was busy losing to non-Nadals of the tour on clay.

Trust me, I've dug quite deep into Federer's clay success just last year. I still have it on MW, thankfully. When I get a chance tomorrow, I'll repost it here.

And yes, once Nole gets a win over Nadal, hopefully this year, I will definitely put him above Federer. He's dealt with Nadal much better on clay and he deserves much credit for that. There's no point making RG final consistently by beating players who aren't all that graet on clay anyway and only to get beaten by the same player who poses real challenge. You have to beat what's in front of you. You don't get a work around there if you claim you stand in the top five of all time greats. Even Guga beat him at RG in 2004 when Federer was ranked 1 and had already 2 Slams behind him. That's 2 all time great players he couldn't beat when he was in his prime. I mean come on. Federer is pretty good on clay but to say such garbage that he's in the top five of all time clay greats is a serious delusional attempt, but unfortunately half of them are anyway. lolol
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Offline Lugburz

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #266 on: May 29, 2013, 07:07:50 PM »
emma get your sorry ass over to the castle and say hello at least before I hunt you down personally and hang you upside down for a couple of hours.
 
 
even your momentary appearance lights up the castle for a month.
 
 
 :)) :))

What would we do with out goddess Emma, eh?  :king:
She does support Andy  :)~ but her originality and uniqueness is always refreshing. I believe I've said something similar long time ago  :))
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Offline Clay Death

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #267 on: May 29, 2013, 07:08:40 PM »
emma general huntingyou just called you a troll.
 
 :)) :)) :rofl_2: :rofl_2: :hysterical: :hysterical:
 
 
you better put him in the dog house for 3 days.

Haven't decided on the punishment yet. Just for making that post he should be on his knees begging for mercy.

I shall think about whether I want to forgive him or not.




 :)) :)) :))

Offline Emma

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #268 on: May 29, 2013, 07:10:04 PM »
emma get your sorry ass over to the castle and say hello at least before I hunt you down personally and hang you upside down for a couple of hours.
 
 
even your momentary appearance lights up the castle for a month.
 
 
 :)) :))

My sorry ass is very busy answering all the long posts here! Tell them to bloody stop. lol

I was never hung upside down. what a scary thought. I shall pack my bags here and move over there.
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Offline Emma

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #269 on: May 29, 2013, 07:11:46 PM »
emma get your sorry ass over to the castle and say hello at least before I hunt you down personally and hang you upside down for a couple of hours.
 
 
even your momentary appearance lights up the castle for a month.
 
 
 :)) :))

What would we do with out goddess Emma, eh?  :king:
She does support Andy  :)~ but her originality and uniqueness is always refreshing. I believe I've said something similar long time ago  :))

Yes, I believe 4 years ago. exactly. I do remember such compliments.  :)~

And Luggy, you know how much I adore you. One of my favourite posters here.  :))
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Offline Lugburz

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #270 on: May 29, 2013, 07:16:51 PM »
emma get your sorry ass over to the castle and say hello at least before I hunt you down personally and hang you upside down for a couple of hours.
 
 
even your momentary appearance lights up the castle for a month.
 
 
 :)) :))

What would we do with out goddess Emma, eh?  :king:
She does support Andy  :)~ but her originality and uniqueness is always refreshing. I believe I've said something similar long time ago  :))

Yes, I believe 4 years ago. exactly. I do remember such compliments.  :)~

And Luggy, you know how much I adore you. One of my favourite posters here.  :))

and........ the feeling is mutual  ;-()
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Offline masterclass

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #271 on: May 29, 2013, 07:18:08 PM »
The point that Mr. Murray is a relative non-factor on clay does not belittle the fact that he has been an overall excellent player to this point.  He certainly is. And his career is not over yet. He may get better, he may not.  He is much like Pete Sampras in terms of his clay surface weakness relative to himself AND others, but he is below Sampras' degree of quality (class) on the other surfaces, so far.

We can talk about other players surface weaknesses and strengths,  but debating about others doesn't support or disprove the point of the original subject - Murray, it is only serves as a distortion or distraction, take your pick.


Well, you can definitely act all holier than thou if you want but the point I was making is very simple - no player in history is equally great on all surfaces and everyone pretty has their weak surface no matter how great they are in overall terms. Also, stats never tell the whole story. There's always much more than just meet the eyes. Murray, in terms of the other top three, he still has a long way to go and I'd never compare his achievements to those., especially when his career is not even half way there. Again, the real point is, it's okay if Murray is very poor on clay right now, he can still achieve a lot more on other surfaces. No one is expecting him to pull a Sampras here, but he can still go and achieve his own - whatever that is. He still has 7 years left in him - give or take. And as I always say, everything is subject to change. Nothing is written in stone. Many thought he'd never win a Slam but he's one now under his belt. And he beat such a line up as Raonic, Cilic, Berdych and Nole - all true hard courters.

Yes, I agree with the part I bolded - I said much the same, though not so detailed, in my first paragraph. :)

And I'll go one step further. It's still possible Murray may improve his results on clay.  I think his overall play is somewhere near his peak. I believe his movement/footwork/sliding has to improve on clay to make a significant improvement, and that may be difficult at this stage.  And yet, the other players are aging.  He may get some finals or titles yet, as time goes by, by sheer attrition.  But when that attrition occurs is hard to accurately predict. He himself could also have injury problems. 

Anyway, I've wished him and continue to wish him the best of luck and success. He also has a good mentor, Ivan Lendl, a player who also had one relative surface weakness, grass. He was superb on clay... :)

Respectfully,
masterclass
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 07:23:44 PM by masterclass »
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Offline Orange Wombat

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #272 on: May 29, 2013, 07:57:34 PM »
One of the first men's matches tomorrow is between Dimitrov and Pouille, a 19-year old French wildcard.

The last men's match is between Gasquet and Prysziezny (spelling  :Confused:). I've seen Pryz play once before. He has a lot of talent and a 1hbh

Goodluck to all and may the best man win!

Offline Emma

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #273 on: May 29, 2013, 08:03:19 PM »

Yes, I agree with the part I bolded - I said much the same, though not so detailed, in my first paragraph. :)

And I'll go one step further. It's still possible Murray may improve his results on clay.  I think his overall play is somewhere near his peak. I believe his movement/footwork/sliding has to improve on clay to make a significant improvement, and that may be difficult at this stage.  And yet, the other players are aging.  He may get some finals or titles yet, as time goes by, by sheer attrition.  But when that attrition occurs is hard to accurately predict. He himself could also have injury problems. 

Anyway, I've wished him and continue to wish him the best of luck and success. He also has a good mentor, Ivan Lendl, a player who also had one relative surface weakness, grass. He was superb on clay... :)

Respectfully,
masterclass

I do feel Andy's success  on clay will come later in his career. He's a late bloomer anyway.

Sorry for the holier than thou comment. I slipped momentarily. Apologies.
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Offline masterclass

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #274 on: May 29, 2013, 08:09:07 PM »
No worries.  I always try to see the best in people, nobody is perfect.   :cool: 

Respectfully,
masterclass
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Offline Clay Death

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #275 on: May 29, 2013, 08:15:49 PM »
One of the first men's matches tomorrow is between Dimitrov and Pouille, a 19-year old French wildcard.

The last men's match is between Gasquet and Prysziezny (spelling  :Confused:). I've seen Pryz play once before. He has a lot of talent and a 1hbh

Goodluck to all and may the best man win!



I am expecting dynamitrov to dominate the proceedings tomorrow.



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Offline Swish

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #276 on: May 29, 2013, 09:34:42 PM »
 
 
 
                       
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 10:29:06 PM by swish »

Offline Dallas

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #277 on: May 29, 2013, 10:04:01 PM »
OK... now that we've all gotten opinions on the board..... Let's NOW keep this thread on subject!!! It was interesting reading about the stats and who thinks what, etc., but this is suppose to be about the 2013 Grand Slam currently being played.  So....let's get back on subject!!!! (maybe a new thread can be opened to continue that fine discussion....) :))

No real surprises for me today.  I wasn't really worried about Roger playing his opponent today.  I am concerned about his next match since he's had problems with him before.

Serena keeps rolling.  Good job for her.

Monfils...I don't know what do think.  He's a 'non-issue' all year, then decides to play the French and is still in the tournament.  That's one thing the men French players do.  They tend to play really well at their home tournament. (which is another reason I'm concerned about Roger's next match).

Caroline...oh Caroline....she just keeps falling and falling.... Will she be in the top 20 by the end of the year?


Offline pawan89

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #278 on: May 29, 2013, 11:52:15 PM »

Both are very true. Unfortunately, to consider Fed a "success" on clay, as relative a term as that might be, you really do have to dig into more than just the Wins he has had and actually consider the runs he's made - something posterity won't bother doing.

Even with that said, his results are easily top 10 on clay, all time. Would like to see how his stats hold up here. As Oracle pointed out, his 56 match win total at RG - undoubtedly will reach 60 before he retires puts him at #1 for most RG wins and will only be surpassed by Nadal. Clearly he's a success, a clear cut success

Although I still question some of her remarks, such as this one:

Quote
Once Nole gets a win over Nadal at RG, he will surpass Federerís success on clay by a good margin.

Really? He might come close given he's actually beaten Nadal at Monte Carlo, Madrid and Rome (Federer has only beaten Nadal in Hamburg and Madrid), but to say he's better by a margin is thoroughly discrediting Federer for all the success he has had in making finals while Novak was busy losing to non-Nadals of the tour on clay.

Trust me, I've dug quite deep into Federer's clay success just last year. I still have it on MW, thankfully. When I get a chance tomorrow, I'll repost it here.

And yes, once Nole gets a win over Nadal, hopefully this year, I will definitely put him above Federer. He's dealt with Nadal much better on clay and he deserves much credit for that. There's no point making RG final consistently by beating players who aren't all that graet on clay anyway and only to get beaten by the same player who poses real challenge. You have to beat what's in front of you. You don't get a work around there if you claim you stand in the top five of all time greats. Even Guga beat him at RG in 2004 when Federer was ranked 1 and had already 2 Slams behind him. That's 2 all time great players he couldn't beat when he was in his prime. I mean come on. Federer is pretty good on clay but to say such garbage that he's in the top five of all time clay greats is a serious delusional attempt, but unfortunately half of them are anyway. lolol

Don't really need the stats Emma, I was just making rhetorical comment that Clay titles alone won't be enough to justify Federer's calim to being one of the best clay courters. In fact I am saying Federer probably won't make a top 5 clay courter list because his stats on clay aren't necessarily top flight (and masterclass's stats show he's not even top 10). But using the same logic, I wouldn't put Novak over Nadal just because he can handle Nadal better than Federer. He needs to post more titles and better win percentages than Federer, or at least get close to them before we can use the argument that he was able to handle Nadal better before I can say he's better than Federer on clay.

Also using Federer's losses at the French in 2003-2004 alone as examples of him not being able to win even without Nadal is not good enough an argument. He was still coming into his own right as a potential hall of famer and his game was very much a work in progress on clay and yeah, he had a bad loss in 2003 and couldn't overcome Kuerten in their first and only encounter in Kuerten's best surface. That's like saying Novak couldn't even handle Kohlschrieber at FO in 2009 when he was already a grand slam champion and solid world #3 and holding it against him for the rest of the career even if he continues to make every RG final only to lose to Nadal or someone else. Or, say Novak goes on to win 2 more Wimbledons, would you hold his losses to Marat Safin and Tommy Haas and Tomas Berdych 2008-2010 when he was already a solid #3 and grand slam winner? I don't think you should. His 3 Wimbledons and win percentages on grass will determine his overall proficiency on grass and only if he's close to another player in those statistics can we use his competition as a reason to place him higher.

Anyway, I realize at this point it's more opinion so to each his own.


Offline pawan89

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Re: 2013 ATP/WTA Grand Slam Roland Garros (May 21-June 9) Draw in post #2
« Reply #279 on: May 29, 2013, 11:58:41 PM »
masterclass, loved your stats and rankings. wonder if you could show me where you pulled those rankings from, I know I have seen it on the ATP site somewhere I think, but would love to see things like, for instance, who's ranked 2 on hard-courts.

Also, what about Lendl? Wonder how he stacks up.