Author Topic: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up  (Read 1021 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Clay Death

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 16589
  • Gender: Male
  • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
    • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« on: June 24, 2013, 08:47:54 PM »
why did he really lose to a player who is not in his class?
you can expect it once in a lifetime like it happened against rosol last year but not 2 years in a row at a slam where he has made no less than 5 finals and won 2 crowns.
and in the process he beat the greatest grass court player of all time in his very prime as he did there in 2008.


so what exactly is going on with nadal? what are your own thoughts?



lets revisit this loss.



you have the floor. have at it.

Offline Clay Death

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 16589
  • Gender: Male
  • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
    • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2013, 09:50:54 PM »
some are saying that he expended simply too much energy winning all those clay events and especially the RG crown.
 
 
 
 
I am not buying that. of course he made a major production of his match with nole at RG. he could have won that in straights or 4 sets.

Offline Dallas

  • Global Moderator
  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 30589
  • Gender: Female
  • Federer-Wawrinka-Serena-Venus-Victoria
    • http://tennisworld.typepad.com/tennisworld/2007/01/monday_net_post.html#comment-27147061
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2013, 09:54:11 PM »
An upset occurs in a competition, frequently in electoral politics or sports, when the party popularly expected to win (the favorite), is defeated by an underdog whom the majority expects to lose, defying the conventional wisdom. The underdog then becomes a giant-killer.

Hence...no one sees an "upset" coming.  It just happens sometimes. The 'favorite' can't win every time! When an upset happens, you just need to move on and get ready for the next tournament.

Offline Clay Death

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 16589
  • Gender: Male
  • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
    • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2013, 10:14:03 PM »
tennis is a brutal sport dallas.
 
 
I still maintain that the root cause of all his troubles--even the knee issues--- the last 3 years is complacency and failure to improve.
 
 
he failed to improve after 2010. that is what is compounding his knee issues and compromising his chances at majors.
 
he rules RG with an iron fist but even there his supremacy is going to start to erode unless he makes some drastic changes in his fitness and his training.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Offline Dallas

  • Global Moderator
  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 30589
  • Gender: Female
  • Federer-Wawrinka-Serena-Venus-Victoria
    • http://tennisworld.typepad.com/tennisworld/2007/01/monday_net_post.html#comment-27147061
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2013, 10:25:43 PM »
OK...whatever.  I just think some of Nadal's fans (including you) are just too hard on him.  I mean, look at everything the guy has accomplished!!!! He's had an amazing career, but if I didn't know any better...after reading some of what you all (his fans) write about him - I would think he was a nobody or something! :rofl_2:  I mean...I can't remember when I read something really "good" about Nadal from you -- and you're suppose to be his fan! :rofl_2:  Wow...can't believe I'm defending Nadal! ..-)

Offline Clay Death

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 16589
  • Gender: Male
  • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
    • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2013, 10:35:24 PM »
why do you want me to be easy on him?
 
what kind of a fan do you think I am dallas.
 
 
 
I must be objective and real with what I have to say.
 
 
I see a guy that is constantly making the worst possible decisions to make sure the knee gets worse and worse.
 
why the bloody hell is he going to basel and Beijing for example?
 
 
why did he play an exo against del potro on hard courts?
 
 
why did he go to indian wells when he knew he had to sit out for 7 long months because he was having knee issues.
 
 
 
I hear today that he was visibly limping in practice yesterday.
 
 
 
I have said all year long that his game and his fitness is in decline. there is only one person who is responsible for that.
 
 
 
real fans don't worship their players. they are highly objective and critical as they should be when their players keep making terrible decisions.
 
 
did you know that this moron was practicing on the hard courts a few days ago?
 
 
 
 

Offline pawan89

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8501
  • Gender: Male
    • Onset of Chaos
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2013, 12:14:22 AM »
Merriam Webster's definition of Objectivity:

Quote
(Adjective) Expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

- Objectively speaking, i.e. facts: Nadal has played 9 tournaments this year, made the finals of every single one of them, and won 7 of them, including solid victories over Djokovic and Federer.
- In my opinion this is a good year, by far the best year of any top player. His return from being sidelined could not have gone better and he re-established himself as the man to beat on Clay and no slouch on hard courts. Quite possibly could have still ended the year ranked #1, as of yesterday.

- Objectively speaking, i.e. facts: His record for the year is 43-2. That's 45 matches he's played before Wimbledon. Comparable top players, Novak has a record of 33-5 for a total of 38 matches, and Murray has a record of 27-5 for a total of 32 matches.
- In my opinion: Nadal has played more than his rivals and given the history of his weaker knees, this could potentially have taken it's toll. Although that toll was none too evident in his very recent domination of the clay season culminating in a solid 8th French Open.

- Objectively speaking, i.e facts: Since 2010, Nadal has made the finals of Wimbledon twice, the finals of the Australian Open once, The finals of the French 4 times, and has won 6 grand slams and 3 runner up performances. POST 2010, he's won 3 Grand Slams and 3 Runner up performances.
- In my opinion: Since 2010 he's won more grand slams (and possibly masters and other smaller titles - don't feel like looking up stats) than any other player. Post 2010, he's still won more titles than anyone except Djokovic, despite missing a lot of time due to injury. In my opinion this shows he's maintained his level at the very least and continues to perform at a higher level than Federer, Murray and the rest of the tour. I won't make a judgement as to if his performance has dropped but in my opinion it's clearly visible that he has been one of the best and that has not changed. The only folks routinely taking advantage of him are .. Djokovic. And that's it.

Finally, my opinion: For a guy constantly making the worst decisions and lives on the knees of a 70 year old, he's done rather well and the only genuine scare he has, from the field, comes in the form of just one player: Djokovic. Exhibitions, hard-court practice sessions and all are part of the sport, whether it be for popularity, money, or practice, they all serve their own purpose and are undertaken by the player when they believe they have made the best judgement of the consequences. Would skipping that one Exhibition match have turned his 1R exit at Wimbledon to another Wimbledon trophy?? I highly doubt it. What about practicing on hard courts? Would I trust the pre-Wimbledon practice schedule of a 5 time Wimbledon finalist and 2 time Wimbledon champion over that of internet-forum-perusers? I think so.

and my final opinion about his loss today: he was clearly sub-par, and expected to work his way into form, which didn't turn out exactly as he wanted. the scoreline was 6-7 6-7 4-6 and it might very well have been 7-6 7-6 6-4 had a handful of points gone his way, and we'd all be saying "Oh well, he needs to improve, let's see how he does against R2 opponent", just like we did after his dropped sets in the first few rounds of the French Open a few weeks ago. I firmly believe had he won that second set when he had the upper hand, the match would have been a straight forward victory from there on. But that didn't happen - as it can happen to anyone anytime, and Darcis took advantage of the situation. And Darcis was the final component of that equation, he was able to play on par with Nadal and not choke. He played great grass court tennis, not giant-killer worthy on it's own but enough to dismantle a sub-par top player on this day. It was a matter of a few points and unfortunately, those few points didn't go Nadal's ways.


Objective involves addressing the pros and the cons of facts. If you're going to be highly critical with the cons then you have to be highly appreciative of the pros. I like your comments/analysis of Nadal even if they get a little repetitive, and I do believe you're being honestly-critical. And there's no harm in saying that you're a critical fan - that's completely fine, but objective? Please..   :rofl_2:
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 12:16:59 AM by pawan89 »


Offline masterclass

  • Tennis Pro
  • *****
  • Posts: 366
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2013, 12:27:03 AM »
Excellent thread, but why so serious?   :cool:

One theory is that Nadal wanted to get back to his home in Mallorca before this PokerStars poker seminar ended.  :dunno:

Respectfully,
masterclass
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 12:30:13 AM by masterclass »
Legends of Tennis

Offline Clay Death

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 16589
  • Gender: Male
  • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
    • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2013, 12:52:41 AM »
 :)) :)) :rofl_2:

Offline masterclass

  • Tennis Pro
  • *****
  • Posts: 366
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2013, 01:26:46 AM »
Legend Nadal and PokerStars

Respectfully,
masterclass
Legends of Tennis

Offline Clay Death

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 16589
  • Gender: Male
  • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
    • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2013, 08:54:56 AM »
soon he will have 60 years to do nothing but play poker and golf.

Offline williamchung7

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 2531
  • Gender: Male
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2013, 09:50:00 AM »
"This Nadal" just cannot handle low-boucing ball like most players experience at their early round of Wimbledon.

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2013, 11:11:08 AM »
Legend Nadal and PokerStars

Respectfully,
masterclass


So that's your latest excuse of his recent debacle @ Wimbledon? hmmm...
You are everything I am not.

Offline FedFanForever

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 3734
  • Gender: Male
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2013, 11:54:45 AM »
Simple answer, Nadal was exhausted/injured from playing too many matches in the last 2 months.
Then we will fight in the shade.

Offline Clay Death

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 16589
  • Gender: Male
  • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
    • Camelot Elite Tennis Society
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2013, 12:42:43 PM »
that theory is picking up some steam: he played too much as he went deep into every single event he played. and he had to win them all as much as possible. he did lose 2 finals.
 
 
the sport has become too demanding over the years. that is why it took so long for a couple of players to come along and do what borg did at least 3 times 30 years ago.
 
borg won the paris-london double 3 times. nadal has done it twice.
 
 
nadal expended simply too much energy on a bad knee and his new, diminished fitness during the clay season.
 
this RG was the hardest for him.
 
 
 
 
all that being said, I still maintain that its his failure to improve since 2010 and his complacency that is the root cause of all his problems. and that includes his knee issues.
 
he put an end to his blistering work ethic after 2010.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 12:44:17 PM by Clay Death »

Offline Emma

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8094
  • Gender: Female
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2013, 02:13:21 PM »
Quote
all that being said, I still maintain that its his failure to improve since 2010 and his complacency that is the root cause of all his problems. and that includes his knee issues.

I only slightly agree with that, herc. You need to keep in mind that the competition has gotten harder with the rise of Nole in 2011 and to some lesser extent, Murray. In fact, in 2011 Nadal had the toughest time in his life against Nole who beat him almost everywhere. Besides, I don't think a player can continue to improve when you take into account that they are on the tour for a number of years now. Motivation goes away slowly but steadily, physical aspects of things take a toll, competition becomes harder etc.

Keep in mind that it's almost impossible to beat Nadal at RG no matter how many months he takes off. He's just not as good on grass and it's time we accept that. You can say he's undercooked (on grass) or overcooked (on clay) but if we consider everything, it just doesn't fly. He has now lost twice at Wimbledon to very low ranked players very, very early - as early as the first round. And this loss to Darcis just yesterday established one fact and that is, his loss to Rosol last year right here was no fluke.
You are everything I am not.

Offline Dallas

  • Global Moderator
  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 30589
  • Gender: Female
  • Federer-Wawrinka-Serena-Venus-Victoria
    • http://tennisworld.typepad.com/tennisworld/2007/01/monday_net_post.html#comment-27147061
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2013, 05:07:39 PM »
Remember the year he won just about 'everything' and he said something about having that special 'knee surgery' or maybe 'treatment' is a better word.  What happened with all that?  Is this problem he's having with his knee the same as he was then? Or is this something entirely new?  Just curious.  If this special 'treatment' worked for him then...why stop the treatment?  Why isn't he still using it?  It is illegal, right? :rofl_2: :rofl_2:

Offline monstertruck

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 12316
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2013, 09:29:49 PM »
Merriam Webster's definition of Objectivity:

Quote
(Adjective) Expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

- Objectively speaking, i.e. facts: Nadal has played 9 tournaments this year, made the finals of every single one of them, and won 7 of them, including solid victories over Djokovic and Federer.
- In my opinion this is a good year, by far the best year of any top player. His return from being sidelined could not have gone better and he re-established himself as the man to beat on Clay and no slouch on hard courts. Quite possibly could have still ended the year ranked #1, as of yesterday.

- Objectively speaking, i.e. facts: His record for the year is 43-2. That's 45 matches he's played before Wimbledon. Comparable top players, Novak has a record of 33-5 for a total of 38 matches, and Murray has a record of 27-5 for a total of 32 matches.
- In my opinion: Nadal has played more than his rivals and given the history of his weaker knees, this could potentially have taken it's toll. Although that toll was none too evident in his very recent domination of the clay season culminating in a solid 8th French Open.

- Objectively speaking, i.e facts: Since 2010, Nadal has made the finals of Wimbledon twice, the finals of the Australian Open once, The finals of the French 4 times, and has won 6 grand slams and 3 runner up performances. POST 2010, he's won 3 Grand Slams and 3 Runner up performances.
- In my opinion: Since 2010 he's won more grand slams (and possibly masters and other smaller titles - don't feel like looking up stats) than any other player. Post 2010, he's still won more titles than anyone except Djokovic, despite missing a lot of time due to injury. In my opinion this shows he's maintained his level at the very least and continues to perform at a higher level than Federer, Murray and the rest of the tour. I won't make a judgement as to if his performance has dropped but in my opinion it's clearly visible that he has been one of the best and that has not changed. The only folks routinely taking advantage of him are .. Djokovic. And that's it.

Finally, my opinion: For a guy constantly making the worst decisions and lives on the knees of a 70 year old, he's done rather well and the only genuine scare he has, from the field, comes in the form of just one player: Djokovic. Exhibitions, hard-court practice sessions and all are part of the sport, whether it be for popularity, money, or practice, they all serve their own purpose and are undertaken by the player when they believe they have made the best judgement of the consequences. Would skipping that one Exhibition match have turned his 1R exit at Wimbledon to another Wimbledon trophy?? I highly doubt it. What about practicing on hard courts? Would I trust the pre-Wimbledon practice schedule of a 5 time Wimbledon finalist and 2 time Wimbledon champion over that of internet-forum-perusers? I think so.

and my final opinion about his loss today: he was clearly sub-par, and expected to work his way into form, which didn't turn out exactly as he wanted. the scoreline was 6-7 6-7 4-6 and it might very well have been 7-6 7-6 6-4 had a handful of points gone his way, and we'd all be saying "Oh well, he needs to improve, let's see how he does against R2 opponent", just like we did after his dropped sets in the first few rounds of the French Open a few weeks ago. I firmly believe had he won that second set when he had the upper hand, the match would have been a straight forward victory from there on. But that didn't happen - as it can happen to anyone anytime, and Darcis took advantage of the situation. And Darcis was the final component of that equation, he was able to play on par with Nadal and not choke. He played great grass court tennis, not giant-killer worthy on it's own but enough to dismantle a sub-par top player on this day. It was a matter of a few points and unfortunately, those few points didn't go Nadal's ways.


Objective involves addressing the pros and the cons of facts. If you're going to be highly critical with the cons then you have to be highly appreciative of the pros. I like your comments/analysis of Nadal even if they get a little repetitive, and I do believe you're being honestly-critical. And there's no harm in saying that you're a critical fan - that's completely fine, but objective? Please..   :rofl_2:
I will nominate this for post of the year if you amend the last word to 'Paaaaaahleeeeeease!'.
CONK da ball!!!

Offline ashwin#1

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 619
  • Gender: Male
  • The Best
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2013, 06:21:29 AM »
Simple Fact/reason : too many matches in too little time. Nadal knows he has a knee problem; he should've played sensible & skipped a tournament on or two on the way..if he had done that, he'd still be in round2 today..but, he went ahead, played a lot & burned himself up..
Its almost impossible for any player to stay injury-free if they played like Nadal did this year..Nadal with his already recurring Knee-problems was bound to lose sooner or later..

I read this in another thread here too : http://www.agomke.com/sport/0/tennis/23040937
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

Offline pawan89

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8501
  • Gender: Male
    • Onset of Chaos
Re: nadal loss revisited : various theories are popping up
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2013, 09:44:50 AM »
I will nominate this for post of the year if you amend the last word to 'Paaaaaahleeeeeease!'.

Paaaaaahleeeeeease!   Longest post of the year maybe  :)~