Author Topic: Nadal - Soderling incident  (Read 9202 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pacer

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 3537
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2007, 01:16:03 PM »
Quote from: "dmastous"
Quote from: "murrayfan11"
Well all the taunting didn't pay off, Nadal won the final set 7-5. Hopefully they can get the other matches finished quickly, so I can see great tennis on Friday!!!


Nadal came in for a talk with Chris Fowler (interesting that Brad Gilbert, Pat McEnroe and Daren Cahill were all not present, you have to believe that was at either Nadal or his handler's request). He said Soderling continued mocking his habits through out the final stages of the match, such as mimicking Nadal's fist pump. Nadal said Soderling was too much into what Nadal as doing and not enough his own business. He also said Soderling didn't acknowledge when he got a lucky shot like a shot off the net cord. Finally, when it came time to shake hands Soderling made a gesture. He repeated the gesture, but did it so that it wasn't shown on camera.
In the end Soderling seem to really show a lot of imaturity. One mocking gesture was enough, but I think he went too far with his mocking.
But then we haven't heard Soderling's side of the story yet.



Yeah but at the end of the day why give someone that much power over you, don't acknowledge it, don't give interviews about it. If your opponent chooses to mock you you really have no control over that it really says more about them then it does anything else.
Ralphie: I want an official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifle! <br /><br />Mrs. Parker: No, you\'ll shoot your eye out.

Offline dmastous

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 15270
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.tips4tennis.com
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2007, 01:56:23 PM »
Quote from: "Pacer92110"
Quote from: "dmastous"
Quote from: "murrayfan11"
Well all the taunting didn't pay off, Nadal won the final set 7-5. Hopefully they can get the other matches finished quickly, so I can see great tennis on Friday!!!


Nadal came in for a talk with Chris Fowler (interesting that Brad Gilbert, Pat McEnroe and Daren Cahill were all not present, you have to believe that was at either Nadal or his handler's request). He said Soderling continued mocking his habits through out the final stages of the match, such as mimicking Nadal's fist pump. Nadal said Soderling was too much into what Nadal as doing and not enough his own business. He also said Soderling didn't acknowledge when he got a lucky shot like a shot off the net cord. Finally, when it came time to shake hands Soderling made a gesture. He repeated the gesture, but did it so that it wasn't shown on camera.
In the end Soderling seem to really show a lot of imaturity. One mocking gesture was enough, but I think he went too far with his mocking.
But then we haven't heard Soderling's side of the story yet.



Yeah but at the end of the day why give someone that much power over you, don't acknowledge it, don't give interviews about it. If your opponent chooses to mock you you really have no control over that it really says more about them then it does anything else.


In that case you would have to say that Nadal shouldn't have done the interview. He knows what questions are going to be asked, and knew what he was going to say. He probably downplayed his anger, over the whole thing. But he was asked the questions, and he answered them. What else can he do? I am assuming he has some obligation to do it so it's not something he can duck. I'm sure he would have loved to duck it.
I also think that's the reason the three former players/coaches were asked to exit (they were in the studio prior to, and after the interview), because they would probably have more inside insight to what actually went on.

Is a tree as a rocking horse
An ambition fulfilled
And is the sawdust jealous?
I worry about these things .

Kevin Godley & Lol Crème (I Pity Inanimate Objects)

Offline Murrayfan11

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 7919
  • Gender: Male
  • Historically, still the best team in England! >>
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2007, 02:07:28 PM »
Quote from: "dmastous"
Quote from: "Pacer92110"
Quote from: "dmastous"
Quote from: "murrayfan11"
Well all the taunting didn't pay off, Nadal won the final set 7-5. Hopefully they can get the other matches finished quickly, so I can see great tennis on Friday!!!


Nadal came in for a talk with Chris Fowler (interesting that Brad Gilbert, Pat McEnroe and Daren Cahill were all not present, you have to believe that was at either Nadal or his handler's request). He said Soderling continued mocking his habits through out the final stages of the match, such as mimicking Nadal's fist pump. Nadal said Soderling was too much into what Nadal as doing and not enough his own business. He also said Soderling didn't acknowledge when he got a lucky shot like a shot off the net cord. Finally, when it came time to shake hands Soderling made a gesture. He repeated the gesture, but did it so that it wasn't shown on camera.
In the end Soderling seem to really show a lot of imaturity. One mocking gesture was enough, but I think he went too far with his mocking.
But then we haven't heard Soderling's side of the story yet.



Yeah but at the end of the day why give someone that much power over you, don't acknowledge it, don't give interviews about it. If your opponent chooses to mock you you really have no control over that it really says more about them then it does anything else.


In that case you would have to say that Nadal shouldn't have done the interview. He knows what questions are going to be asked, and knew what he was going to say. He probably downplayed his anger, over the whole thing. But he was asked the questions, and he answered them. What else can he do? I am assuming he has some obligation to do it so it's not something he can duck. I'm sure he would have loved to duck it.
I also think that's the reason the three former players/coaches were asked to exit (they were in the studio prior to, and after the interview), because they would probably have more inside insight to what actually went on.


Thanks, I think Nadal took it to seriously, to start with it was all in good jest!!! Any news on the Soderling side of things yet?

Offline Alison2006

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 3238
I never thought he would win 4 French Opens - Roger Federer on Rafa

Offline Bundey

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 1619
  • Gender: Male
  • Formerly known as "#1federerfan"
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2007, 06:21:45 PM »
Quote from: "Pacer92110"
Nadal was being a jerk and Solderling was just giving it back. I'm amazed at how sensitive people can be. You pick your butt between every point and then get mad when someone notices. Dude you pick out your wedgie on international TV for the world to see, nothing should embarass you.

Crazy isn't it...  :whistle:  J/k.
Ok in all seriousness though I was on another message board (I know, I'm a traitor) and some Nadal fans were seriously freaking out over the incident and saying that it embarrasses tennis, Sweden and our whole planet in general, kinda funny really!

Offline dmastous

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 15270
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.tips4tennis.com
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2007, 06:28:08 PM »
Quote from: "#1federerfan"
Quote from: "Pacer92110"
Nadal was being a jerk and Solderling was just giving it back. I'm amazed at how sensitive people can be. You pick your butt between every point and then get mad when someone notices. Dude you pick out your wedgie on international TV for the world to see, nothing should embarass you.

Crazy isn't it...  :whistle:  J/k.
Ok in all seriousness though I was on another message board (I know, I'm a traitor) and some Nadal fans were seriously freaking out over the incident and saying that it embarrasses tennis, Sweden and our whole planet in general, kinda funny really!

If your talking TW, I just cruized over there (logged in for the first time since April) to see what the talk was. I gets pretty brutal in there, which is why I don't go there too much. As expected fire and brimstone and lots of wrong impressions. ..-)

Is a tree as a rocking horse
An ambition fulfilled
And is the sawdust jealous?
I worry about these things .

Kevin Godley & Lol Crème (I Pity Inanimate Objects)

Offline Pacer

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 3537
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2007, 06:34:05 PM »
Quote from: "#1federerfan"
Quote from: "Pacer92110"
Nadal was being a jerk and Solderling was just giving it back. I'm amazed at how sensitive people can be. You pick your butt between every point and then get mad when someone notices. Dude you pick out your wedgie on international TV for the world to see, nothing should embarass you.

Crazy isn't it...  :whistle:  J/k.
Ok in all seriousness though I was on another message board (I know, I'm a traitor) and some Nadal fans were seriously freaking out over the incident and saying that it embarrasses tennis, Sweden and our whole planet in general, kinda funny really!



Well, since you see my objections to the term you used as my being "too sensitive" I realize my point was lost on you. Too speak out against intolerance doesn't make one "too sensitive" it makes one brave, given that most people don't speak out and thus we have mass genocides and wars as a result. Like I said before as a human rights activist I will always speak out against intolerance and I don't care what you or anyone else on this board has to say about it, it is my oath as an activist. If I must go it alone I will. If you think I'm being too sensitive then think it but don't belittle my beliefs with your sarcasm this is something I take very seriously.
Ralphie: I want an official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifle! <br /><br />Mrs. Parker: No, you\'ll shoot your eye out.

Offline Bundey

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 1619
  • Gender: Male
  • Formerly known as "#1federerfan"
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2007, 09:06:17 PM »
Quote from: "Pacer92110"
Quote from: "#1federerfan"
Quote from: "Pacer92110"
Nadal was being a jerk and Solderling was just giving it back. I'm amazed at how sensitive people can be. You pick your butt between every point and then get mad when someone notices. Dude you pick out your wedgie on international TV for the world to see, nothing should embarass you.

Crazy isn't it...  :whistle:  J/k.
Ok in all seriousness though I was on another message board (I know, I'm a traitor) and some Nadal fans were seriously freaking out over the incident and saying that it embarrasses tennis, Sweden and our whole planet in general, kinda funny really!



Well, since you see my objections to the term you used as my being "too sensitive" I realize my point was lost on you. Too speak out against intolerance doesn't make one "too sensitive" it makes one brave, given that most people don't speak out and thus we have mass genocides and wars as a result. Like I said before as a human rights activist I will always speak out against intolerance and I don't care what you or anyone else on this board has to say about it, it is my oath as an activist. If I must go it alone I will. If you think I'm being too sensitive then think it but don't belittle my beliefs with your sarcasm this is something I take very seriously.

Sorry couldn't resist.  I didn't mean anything by it, it was just set up so beautifully that I couldn't help myself.  Do you forgive me.  ;&gt;)

Oh, and Dmastous yes, it was TW.

Offline kickserve

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 12961
  • Gender: Male
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2007, 01:14:30 AM »
I think Nadals annoyance wasn't due to embarassment, it was due to Soderling deliberately having a pop at him. Anyway, he got the appropriate punishment: a one-way ticket out of Wimbledon :bye1:

Offline boatsign

  • Tennis Enthusiast
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2007, 06:26:22 AM »
Since Nadal puts SO MUCH muscular effort into every shot, he needs and wants the maximum time to transpire between plays, so he can fully recover and get his total strength.  Therefore he pushes the allowable time between plays, even at the cost of warnings and the occasional infraction.  So, good for him.  That's his style.  That works for him.

That said, Nadal's style and all his time-delaying ceremonies (like carefully lining up the water bottles and drinking from each of them), inevitably comes into conflict with other styles that flow a little bit faster.

No one style should have all the extra priviliges.  The weather has exaggerated that contrast.

Why is the story Nadal, Nadal, Nadal?  It wasn't easy to be in Soderling's position either either.  

(Now I'm going to read those interviews)

Offline boatsign

  • Tennis Enthusiast
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2007, 06:41:23 AM »
Quote
ROBIN SODERLING: .....Today, as I said, I didn't put as many first serves in as I needed to. But still I had my chances. I had a breakpoint. But he played well. All credit to him.


Quote
Q. Would you tell us what you were thinking when you were grabbing at your shorts and why you were doing that?

ROBIN SODERLING
: Oh, well, it was more of a fun thing, you know. I mean, I had to wait for him it was at the start of the fifth set. Until that, I think I had to wait for him, I mean, more than 200 times. Every point I had to wait for him. He had to wait for me one time. He's starting already shaking his head, doing these things. So, but, it was maybe I shouldn't have done it. I'm not angry at him at all.

Q. How did it make you feel during those 200 times he did slow things down?

ROBIN SODERLING: It's tough. I mean, most of the players I think all players play faster than him. It's different. That's how he plays against everybody, so...

Offline dmastous

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 15270
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.tips4tennis.com
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2007, 08:51:56 AM »
Quote from: "boatsign"
Since Nadal puts SO MUCH muscular effort into every shot, he needs and wants the maximum time to transpire between plays, so he can fully recover and get his total strength.  Therefore he pushes the allowable time between plays, even at the cost of warnings and the occasional infraction.  So, good for him.  That's his style.  That works for him.

That said, Nadal's style and all his time-delaying ceremonies (like carefully lining up the water bottles and drinking from each of them), inevitably comes into conflict with other styles that flow a little bit faster.

No one style should have all the extra priviliges.  The weather has exaggerated that contrast.

Why is the story Nadal, Nadal, Nadal?  It wasn't easy to be in Soderling's position either either.  

(Now I'm going to read those interviews)


You've said it right here.
But I don't think you've got the reason Nadal takes so much time right. I don't think he does it to recover from the effort he takes to win points. I think he does it because he has to do it. He has to do all those little things to get the mojo right (to take a little turn from Roddick).
We've seen this kind of thing in other athletes. Nomar Garciapara is a good example. His pre at bat ritual is incredible. Everyone has seen him with his approach to the plate, and his tightening of each batting glove a certain number of times (7 I think).  His tapping each toes a certain number of times. He goes up and down the dugout steps touching each step with both feet every time. But as he is standing in batter's box waiting to hit he goes through an amazing array of hand gestures on the bat and waving his hands in front of his eyes. It's fascinating. Why? Some of those things are part of things that help him prepare (like waving his hands in front of his eyes to stimulate them), others are things that have developed along the way as superstitions. Perhaps one day he was mired in a a long slump and he decided to go up the steps touching each one with both feet and got a double. So from that point on he went up the steps the same way. The same with many of the other gestures. They've just gotten piled on to one another.
I think a similar thing is happening with Nadal. One day he put his water bottle just so, and he felt great. So he contiues to do it. One day he was a little uncomfortable, and adjusted his jock strap, and played great. He associates that with feeling good so he has to do all those things to feel right. These rituals are to the point of superstitions.
But tennis isn't Nadal's game. It's not all about him. There are rules that govern the amount of time a player can take between points, and he breaks that rule all the time. He makes his opponenet do everything first to take volleys. He will outwait them so that they have to go on court first, the umpire goes out to flip the coin and you will see his opponent and the ump waiting for Nadal as he fiddles with his stuff. He makes his opponent come to the net first. He makes his opponent come out and wait for him after changeovers. It's possible this is also something that just makes him feel 'right'. But it means that he is constantly getting under the skin of his opponent, and he is constantly breaking the time rules.
I've seen plenty of his opponents get up to the line to serve and then back off because Nadal isn't ready yet. I watched as Agassi played him at Wimbledon. In the first set Agassi got into his ready postion for the return when Nadal got to the line. And stayed the while Nadal did his little dance. By the third set Agassi had gotten a better read on Nadal's habits and just stood back until he felt Nadal was going to actualy go ahead and serve. Then he got down into his return stance.
These kind of things bug players to no end because they are creatures of habit too. But Nadal's habits always mess with theirs. He trumps them everytime. Their rhythm is put off. Their mojo is off.

Is a tree as a rocking horse
An ambition fulfilled
And is the sawdust jealous?
I worry about these things .

Kevin Godley & Lol Crème (I Pity Inanimate Objects)

Offline boatsign

  • Tennis Enthusiast
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2007, 09:56:23 AM »
Quote
He trumps them everytime. Their rhythm is put off. Their mojo is off.


There's a point at which delay tactics can be taken as bad sportsmanship on his part.  So if another player imitates him once in 200 times, does that make the other player is a bad sport?  Who knows?  

Maybe other players will start in with some kind of ridiculous antics if they think it will gain a point or two.  Sometimes a point or two wins the match, which is what Nadal aims for, too.  Certainly all the other players are aiming to gain an edge that will help them against Federer.  Maybe other players will find gentlemanly ways of disrupting Nadal's timing, so his rituals attract attention and the delay-of-game infractions get enforced.

However, getting back to the muscularity argument, I think Nadal NEEDS the time to recover.  It is well known in martial arts, particularly the fighting side of Tai Chi, that you can get an edge by moving efficiently.  The idea is to conserve energy through relaxing most of your muscles and using ONLY those needed for the action.  This strategy produces lightning reflexes while using the minimum of MUSCULAR action.  Muscular action is more physically demanding and NEEDS MORE TIME for recovery.  

Nadal's style being very muscular, he is doing windsprints all match.  He wants other players to do windsprints too, and play the game that way.  If Nadal were forced to play twice as fast, he could not physically to the same things.  He would be playing at only 90 to 95% of his muscular capacity instead of 100%.  At the top of professional sports, 1% represents an enormous advantage.

The clay court gives Nadal more time.  The grass doesn't.  So he probably takes even more time on grass.  How ridiculous would it be to delay the finals for three weeks, just for one style of play?

Offline dmastous

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 15270
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.tips4tennis.com
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2007, 10:12:56 AM »
Quote from: "boatsign"
Quote
He trumps them everytime. Their rhythm is put off. Their mojo is off.


There's a point at which delay tactics can be taken as bad sportsmanship on his part.  So if another player imitates him once in 200 times, does that make the other player is a bad sport?  Who knows?  

Maybe other players will start in with some kind of ridiculous antics if they think it will gain a point or two.  Sometimes a point or two wins the match, which is what Nadal aims for, too.  Certainly all the other players are aiming to gain an edge that will help them against Federer.  Maybe other players will find gentlemanly ways of disrupting Nadal's timing, so his rituals attract attention and the delay-of-game infractions get enforced.

However, getting back to the muscularity argument, I think Nadal NEEDS the time to recover.  It is well known in martial arts, particularly the fighting side of Tai Chi, that you can get an edge by moving efficiently.  The idea is to conserve energy through relaxing most of your muscles and using ONLY those needed for the action.  This strategy produces lightning reflexes while using the minimum of MUSCULAR action.  Muscular action is more physically demanding and NEEDS MORE TIME for recovery.  

Nadal's style being very muscular, he is doing windsprints all match.  He wants other players to do windsprints too, and play the game that way.  If Nadal were forced to play twice as fast, he could not physically to the same things.  He would be playing at only 90 to 95% of his muscular capacity instead of 100%.  At the top of professional sports, 1% represents an enormous advantage.

The clay court gives Nadal more time.  The grass doesn't.  So he probably takes even more time on grass.  How ridiculous would it be to delay the finals for three weeks, just for one style of play?


If that's the case, Nadal needs the time to recover from his more physically demanding game, then he needs to make the adjustment, not the rest of the tour. He needs to either get even more fit, or change his style slightly so it doesn't take so much out of him.
Why should a thousand people have to adjust to just one?

Is a tree as a rocking horse
An ambition fulfilled
And is the sawdust jealous?
I worry about these things .

Kevin Godley & Lol Crème (I Pity Inanimate Objects)

Offline OSU Buckeye

  • The Great One!
  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 15107
  • LETS GO BUCKS!!!
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2007, 11:17:36 AM »
Quote from: "dmastous"
Quote from: "boatsign"
Quote
He trumps them everytime. Their rhythm is put off. Their mojo is off.


There's a point at which delay tactics can be taken as bad sportsmanship on his part.  So if another player imitates him once in 200 times, does that make the other player is a bad sport?  Who knows?  

Maybe other players will start in with some kind of ridiculous antics if they think it will gain a point or two.  Sometimes a point or two wins the match, which is what Nadal aims for, too.  Certainly all the other players are aiming to gain an edge that will help them against Federer.  Maybe other players will find gentlemanly ways of disrupting Nadal's timing, so his rituals attract attention and the delay-of-game infractions get enforced.

However, getting back to the muscularity argument, I think Nadal NEEDS the time to recover.  It is well known in martial arts, particularly the fighting side of Tai Chi, that you can get an edge by moving efficiently.  The idea is to conserve energy through relaxing most of your muscles and using ONLY those needed for the action.  This strategy produces lightning reflexes while using the minimum of MUSCULAR action.  Muscular action is more physically demanding and NEEDS MORE TIME for recovery.  

Nadal's style being very muscular, he is doing windsprints all match.  He wants other players to do windsprints too, and play the game that way.  If Nadal were forced to play twice as fast, he could not physically to the same things.  He would be playing at only 90 to 95% of his muscular capacity instead of 100%.  At the top of professional sports, 1% represents an enormous advantage.

The clay court gives Nadal more time.  The grass doesn't.  So he probably takes even more time on grass.  How ridiculous would it be to delay the finals for three weeks, just for one style of play?


If that's the case, Nadal needs the time to recover from his more physically demanding game, then he needs to make the adjustment, not the rest of the tour. He needs to either get even more fit, or change his style slightly so it doesn't take so much out of him.
Why should a thousand people have to adjust to just one?


I agree fully!  The one that gets me the most is how many times I have seen Nadal hold his hand or racquet up while his opponent is getting ready to serve.  Even worse, I have seen Nadal hold his hand/racquet up for a few seconds, then realise the other player wasn't looking, so he holds his racquet/hand up longer until the other player looks up and sees it.  To me, this is a deliberate attempt to break any rythm the opposing player might have on their serve and is inexcuseable as far as I am concerned.  The rule is to play to the server's pace unless that is unreasonable, like if the server is playing lightning fast.  I think the Chair Umpire's need to give out more warnings or penalties but I expect their hands are tied since they are dealing with Mr. #2 in the world.....Nadal!   ..-)      I also feel I have seen that there are certain players that Nadal won't pull his antics on like Fed and others.   Its all good with me if it is within the rules, but if he is stretching all the time rules, which are in place for many good reasons, then it has to be punished.  Failure to punish those antics are why a few players have had issues with Nadal recently on court (Soderling and Ljubicic last year), where they feel they must retaliate against Nadal for such things.

Offline kickserve

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 12961
  • Gender: Male
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2007, 11:22:17 AM »
Quote from: "OSU Buckeye"
Quote from: "dmastous"
Quote from: "boatsign"
Quote
He trumps them everytime. Their rhythm is put off. Their mojo is off.


There's a point at which delay tactics can be taken as bad sportsmanship on his part.  So if another player imitates him once in 200 times, does that make the other player is a bad sport?  Who knows?  

Maybe other players will start in with some kind of ridiculous antics if they think it will gain a point or two.  Sometimes a point or two wins the match, which is what Nadal aims for, too.  Certainly all the other players are aiming to gain an edge that will help them against Federer.  Maybe other players will find gentlemanly ways of disrupting Nadal's timing, so his rituals attract attention and the delay-of-game infractions get enforced.

However, getting back to the muscularity argument, I think Nadal NEEDS the time to recover.  It is well known in martial arts, particularly the fighting side of Tai Chi, that you can get an edge by moving efficiently.  The idea is to conserve energy through relaxing most of your muscles and using ONLY those needed for the action.  This strategy produces lightning reflexes while using the minimum of MUSCULAR action.  Muscular action is more physically demanding and NEEDS MORE TIME for recovery.  

Nadal's style being very muscular, he is doing windsprints all match.  He wants other players to do windsprints too, and play the game that way.  If Nadal were forced to play twice as fast, he could not physically to the same things.  He would be playing at only 90 to 95% of his muscular capacity instead of 100%.  At the top of professional sports, 1% represents an enormous advantage.

The clay court gives Nadal more time.  The grass doesn't.  So he probably takes even more time on grass.  How ridiculous would it be to delay the finals for three weeks, just for one style of play?


If that's the case, Nadal needs the time to recover from his more physically demanding game, then he needs to make the adjustment, not the rest of the tour. He needs to either get even more fit, or change his style slightly so it doesn't take so much out of him.
Why should a thousand people have to adjust to just one?


I agree fully!  The one that gets me the most is how many times I have seen Nadal hold his hand or racquet up while his opponent is getting ready to serve.  Even worse, I have seen Nadal hold his hand/racquet up for a few seconds, then realise the other player wasn't looking, so he holds his racquet/hand up longer until the other player looks up and sees it.  To me, this is a deliberate attempt to break any rythm the opposing player might have on their serve and is inexcuseable as far as I am concerned.  The rule is to play to the server's pace unless that is unreasonable, like if the server is playing lightning fast.  I think the Chair Umpire's need to give out more warnings or penalties but I expect their hands are tied since they are dealing with Mr. #2 in the world.....Nadal!   ..-)      I also feel I have seen that there are certain players that Nadal won't pull his antics on like Fed and others.   Its all good with me if it is within the rules, but if he is stretching all the time rules, which are in place for many good reasons, then it has to be punished.  Failure to punish those antics are why a few players have had issues with Nadal recently on court (Soderling and Ljubicic last year), where they feel they must retaliate against Nadal for such things.


It could only take one umpire making a stand to have a genuine effect. However, that stand could cost an umpire their job, because it's the No: 2 in the world, so it's not worth an umpire's while to go any further than a code violation.

Offline dmastous

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 15270
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.tips4tennis.com
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2007, 03:18:17 PM »
Quote from: "kickserve"
Quote from: "OSU Buckeye"
Quote from: "dmastous"
Quote from: "boatsign"
Quote
He trumps them everytime. Their rhythm is put off. Their mojo is off.


There's a point at which delay tactics can be taken as bad sportsmanship on his part.  So if another player imitates him once in 200 times, does that make the other player is a bad sport?  Who knows?  

Maybe other players will start in with some kind of ridiculous antics if they think it will gain a point or two.  Sometimes a point or two wins the match, which is what Nadal aims for, too.  Certainly all the other players are aiming to gain an edge that will help them against Federer.  Maybe other players will find gentlemanly ways of disrupting Nadal's timing, so his rituals attract attention and the delay-of-game infractions get enforced.

However, getting back to the muscularity argument, I think Nadal NEEDS the time to recover.  It is well known in martial arts, particularly the fighting side of Tai Chi, that you can get an edge by moving efficiently.  The idea is to conserve energy through relaxing most of your muscles and using ONLY those needed for the action.  This strategy produces lightning reflexes while using the minimum of MUSCULAR action.  Muscular action is more physically demanding and NEEDS MORE TIME for recovery.  

Nadal's style being very muscular, he is doing windsprints all match.  He wants other players to do windsprints too, and play the game that way.  If Nadal were forced to play twice as fast, he could not physically to the same things.  He would be playing at only 90 to 95% of his muscular capacity instead of 100%.  At the top of professional sports, 1% represents an enormous advantage.

The clay court gives Nadal more time.  The grass doesn't.  So he probably takes even more time on grass.  How ridiculous would it be to delay the finals for three weeks, just for one style of play?


If that's the case, Nadal needs the time to recover from his more physically demanding game, then he needs to make the adjustment, not the rest of the tour. He needs to either get even more fit, or change his style slightly so it doesn't take so much out of him.
Why should a thousand people have to adjust to just one?


I agree fully!  The one that gets me the most is how many times I have seen Nadal hold his hand or racquet up while his opponent is getting ready to serve.  Even worse, I have seen Nadal hold his hand/racquet up for a few seconds, then realise the other player wasn't looking, so he holds his racquet/hand up longer until the other player looks up and sees it.  To me, this is a deliberate attempt to break any rythm the opposing player might have on their serve and is inexcuseable as far as I am concerned.  The rule is to play to the server's pace unless that is unreasonable, like if the server is playing lightning fast.  I think the Chair Umpire's need to give out more warnings or penalties but I expect their hands are tied since they are dealing with Mr. #2 in the world.....Nadal!   ..-)      I also feel I have seen that there are certain players that Nadal won't pull his antics on like Fed and others.   Its all good with me if it is within the rules, but if he is stretching all the time rules, which are in place for many good reasons, then it has to be punished.  Failure to punish those antics are why a few players have had issues with Nadal recently on court (Soderling and Ljubicic last year), where they feel they must retaliate against Nadal for such things.


It could only take one umpire making a stand to have a genuine effect. However, that stand could cost an umpire their job, because it's the No: 2 in the world, so it's not worth an umpire's while to go any further than a code violation.


He has been given warnings when his opponents have beseached them to do so, but it's never been taken to the next level to my knowledge.
You are right the first umpire to actually enforce the rules, and give him a warning, point penalty, game penalty, and/or default Nadal for his delays is going to find himself in some serious hot water. He will be the subject of numerous letters from Tony Nadal threatening suit, or just to take Nadal off the tour... no more googoo eyed fans oggeling at his bulging biceps. No more 'Vamos Rafa!', no more fist pumps and gritty clay court play.
I'm sure that has quite a bit to do with his intranscience.

Is a tree as a rocking horse
An ambition fulfilled
And is the sawdust jealous?
I worry about these things .

Kevin Godley & Lol Crème (I Pity Inanimate Objects)

Offline FreeBird

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 2271
  • Gender: Male
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2007, 04:20:40 PM »
Quote from: "dmastous"

He has been given warnings when his opponents have beseached them to do so, but it's never been taken to the next level to my knowledge.
You are right the first umpire to actually enforce the rules, and give him a warning, point penalty, game penalty, and/or default Nadal for his delays is going to find himself in some serious hot water. He will be the subject of numerous letters from Tony Nadal threatening suit, or just to take Nadal off the tour... no more googoo eyed fans oggeling at his bulging biceps. No more 'Vamos Rafa!', no more fist pumps and gritty clay court play.
I'm sure that has quite a bit to do with his intranscience.


I think it's pretty unlikely Nadal would pull off the circuit because of something like that - there's just too much to lose (ie, millions of $$$).  He couldn't make a fraction of what he does at tennis in any other career.  I guess there's the argument that he's already got enough and could just retire, but ehhh, I doubt it :)  That said, even if he were to quit, it's a real shame that they don't enforce the rules equally - it's downright dispiriting.
Good luck on the court is nice to have, but it's usually extraneous when playing against Baker.

Offline pawan89

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 8501
  • Gender: Male
    • Onset of Chaos
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2007, 04:37:18 PM »
Quote
ROBIN SODERLING: Oh, well, it was more of a fun thing, you know. I mean, I had to wait for him it was at the start of the fifth set. Until that, I think I had to wait for him, I mean, more than 200 times. Every point I had to wait for him. He had to wait for me one time. He's starting already shaking his head, doing these things. So, but, it was maybe I shouldn't have done it. I'm not angry at him at all.



Nadal definitely isn't a good reciever of gamesmanship. It doesn't matter to him that he does it all the time, but when someone retaliates his blood boils over. I think we have seen this many times before too. The whole Berdych silencing the crowd thing? Berdych didn't mean anything by it besides what it was = be quiet! That has apparently built a rift between Nadal and Berdych that Nadal's trying to mend.  BOTH players in the match have their share of emotions and its about time Nadal realzies this everytime someone does something to irritate him and stop complaining about it.


Offline kickserve

  • Tennis God
  • ******
  • Posts: 12961
  • Gender: Male
Nadal - Soderling incident
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2007, 04:40:46 PM »
Quote from: "pawan89"
Quote
ROBIN SODERLING: Oh, well, it was more of a fun thing, you know. I mean, I had to wait for him it was at the start of the fifth set. Until that, I think I had to wait for him, I mean, more than 200 times. Every point I had to wait for him. He had to wait for me one time. He's starting already shaking his head, doing these things. So, but, it was maybe I shouldn't have done it. I'm not angry at him at all.



Nadal definitely isn't a good reciever of gamesmanship. It doesn't matter to him that he does it all the time, but when someone retaliates his blood boils over. I think we have seen this many times before too. The whole Berdych silencing the crowd thing? Berdych didn't mean anything by it besides what it was = be quiet! That has apparently built a rift between Nadal and Berdych that Nadal's trying to mend.  BOTH players in the match have their share of emotions and its about time Nadal realzies this everytime someone does something to irritate him and stop complaining about it.


With the Nadal-Berdych match, Berdych silenced the crowd, Nadal said 'very bad' as they shook hands. I thought at the time he meant 'very stupid, the crowd will destroy you'. I didn't think he was being particularly rude, just honest. Berdych was being a 'bad winner' that day: somebody had to tell him.