Author Topic: Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving  (Read 1670 times)

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kitten25

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« on: March 17, 2005, 02:17:02 PM »
Of late it seems some of you have observed, determined, that Andy Roddick is not living up to his vast potential, not beating Federer as much as he should, not piling up titles as he should, not being 1 as he should, and not dominating players not named Federer like Safin and Hewitt enough.    While those who have that stance, have given good points, I personaly could not agree any less with that opinion.

         I think Roddick is overachieving and has since 2003.   While Roddick is very talented, still in cumulative natural ability he is clearly trailing both Federer and Safin, and only slighly ahead of 3 or 4 others.   Yet he has managed to split the last two year end 1s, ATP player of the year awards, ITF player of the year awards with Federer.   He has managed to make the quarters of 8 of the last 9 slams, semis 4 of those, finals 2 of those, victories 1 of those.   He has been ranked ahead of a revived Hewitt and a returned Safin for 90% of the last 15 months, and ended last year ranked over both of them.   He is the only player apart from Federer to consistenly make it that late of rounds in events for a period of 15 months, Hewitt has for 8 months but not 15 like Roddick.  How is this underachieving?

        Considering his only outstanding strengths are his serve and forehand, and there are players with atleast as good of forehands, and almost as good of serves, I say he is doing extremely well.    Andy should be praised for greatly overachieving.    Players like Safin, who for all his vast talent has never ended a year 1, and is not nearly as consistent reaching late rounds as Roddick, and has lost 3 of his last 4 to Roddick despite being second in talent only to Federer, should be one criticized for failing to live up to his potential.   Tommy Haas and Carlos Moya, who probably are close to Roddick in overall talent, should be criticized for not living up to their potential.   Hewitt, who is less talented than Roddick, and Roddick should actually be heavily praised for their overachieving IMHO.

Offline wilsonboy

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2005, 03:09:22 PM »
I think that Roddick is a good...(let me restate that)...superb player. But there are so many others who have stepped up to or above his level. Sure he should be recognized. But his case is similar to Venus Williams': She had her moment of glory and now it's time to step aside for the rest to peak.
Be the change that you seek.

Offline kittens25

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2005, 03:12:53 PM »
I agree.   Federer is so much better than 2003.   In 2003 he did not even reach the quarters of a slam apart from Wimbledon, and won no masters Series titles.   Safin barely played.   Hewitt dropped out of the top 10 and lost the defiant hunger and determination that allows him to surpass his talent level usually.   Old players were dropping, young ones were not arriving.    Roddick played great and took advantage of the situation.   Things are gradually progressing, they still have a ways to go still, as we saw in his match with Gonzales last night, few players can return his serve, a sign of the still lacking quality of mens tennis relative to years gone past, but it has progressed to the point things are and should be much harder for him than 2003 when he almost won 3 slams and swept the year-end 1 and players awards.

Offline euroka1

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2005, 03:17:02 PM »
I too agree with all of the above. But it doesn't make his games any more interesting or agreeable to watch. Give me Federer any day.

Offline kittens25

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2005, 03:19:53 PM »
I agree, seeing him muscling his way through the ball, contorting his arm and shoulder, while chauvanististly showboating through it all is not my cup of tea.   He seems to be liked enough to be considered a popular player though, which is good that he gives a certain group of people pleasure.   Different strokes for different folks I guess(like the volley not being Roddicks type of stroke, LOL!)

Offline Betsmoyo

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2005, 03:22:29 PM »
I see Andy falling to 4 or maybe 5 soon. With the clay coming up who knows. Marat is strong on clay. The clay guys are behind him so hes got some trouble ahead.
Its all good...

Offline wilsonboy

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2005, 03:26:20 PM »
To add to what I said earlier, It's not only his game that has let him down. I think that he is aware that others are rising up. So he is probably not as focused on his game as he used to be. And I, personally, don't have anything against Roddick but people are starting to get ... well... tired of him (no offense to A-rod fans). ||-|
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Offline kittens25

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2005, 03:27:52 PM »
I think deep down he knows he wont be 1 again, and he wanted a coach that would take the pressure off and let him have fun, rather than have unrealistic expectations.   He is very mentally tough and works hard though.   I think that is why he overachieves, plus there are too many underachievers like Safin, Haas, Moya, Gonzales, around him to allow him easier paths to success.

Offline wilsonboy

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2005, 03:54:53 PM »
Quote from: "kittens25"
I think deep down he knows he wont be 1 again, and he wanted a coach that would take the pressure off and let him have fun, rather than have unrealistic expectations.   He is very mentally tough and works hard though.   I think that is why he overachieves, plus there are too many underachievers like Safin, Haas, Moya, Gonzales, around him to allow him easier paths to success.

What she said :))
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Offline MC ill Logic

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2005, 05:59:32 PM »
Quote from: "kittens25"
Roddick played great and took advantage of the situation.   Things are gradually progressing, they still have a ways to go still, as we saw in his match with Gonzales last night, few players can return his serve, a sign of the still lacking quality of mens tennis relative to years gone past, but it has progressed to the point things are and should be much harder for him than 2003 when he almost won 3 slams and swept the year-end 1 and players awards.
Did you say that today's players don't return as well as guys from days of yore?
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While Roddick is very talented, still in cumulative natural ability he is clearly trailing both Federer and Safin, and only slighly ahead of 3 or 4 others.
Well if talent was all that mattered the top 10 would include Arazi, Escude, Malisse, Santoro, etc.  But talent is not all that matters, and even though I agree that Safin and Federer are clearly more naturally talented than Roddick, Safin is only so by a negligible amount.  And Roddick has Safin beat handily in the heart and brains departments, and those are important, too.  Hewitt because number one on speed and heart alone... almost.  Roddick is not super talented as far as stroke production go, but I'd argue that in terms of the complete package, he's among the very elite.
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I think deep down he knows he wont be 1 again, and he wanted a coach that would take the pressure off and let him have fun, rather than have unrealistic expectations.
Completely disagree.  He may sometimes wonder if he'll ever get a chance to be top dog again, but I don't think he's conceding anything.  I think Safin is the one that's conceded that he'll never fully realize his potential.  Roddick, on the other hand, seems driven to not be just a mere footnote in the chapter of history entitled "The Federer Years..."
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He is very mentally tough and works hard though.   I think that is why he overachieves, plus there are too many underachievers like Safin, Haas, Moya, Gonzales, around him to allow him easier paths to success.
I agree with the first sentence.  As for the second, such is sports.  It's hard to begrudge Roddick for luckily not getting injured and for working hard.  Jordan worked hard, too.

Actually, I like Andy after having seen him play at Davis Cup.  His match was really fun and in person his game is exciting to watch.  He shows a lot of emotion and it's amazing how much that adds to the experience.  And his hypersonic forehand and serve are freak shows in person.  You can't turn your eyes away because you never know when he's going to rip a shot from hell.  He's cocky, no doubt.  But, man, we need some personalities in the sport right about now.  I'll take Andy's strutting, arm waving, clapping, and pouting over Sampras' imitation of a tongue waving tennis zombie any day of the week.

Offline wilsonboy

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2005, 06:11:26 PM »
Bad returns? Look at Andre's. That's like the best ever. ;;)
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Offline euroka1

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2005, 06:41:58 PM »
Quote from: "MC ill Logic"
Quote from: "kittens25"
.

Actually, I like Andy after having seen him play at Davis Cup.  His match was really fun and in person his game is exciting to watch.  He shows a lot of emotion and it's amazing how much that adds to the experience.  And his hypersonic forehand and serve are freak shows in person.  You can't turn your eyes away because you never know when he's going to rip a shot from hell.  He's cocky, no doubt.  But, man, we need some personalities in the sport right about now.  I'll take Andy's strutting, arm waving, clapping, and pouting over Sampras' imitation of a tongue waving tennis zombie any day of the week.


Not my kind of show. I can do without. Have just watched Canas-Henman. That was real spectator tennis. Fabulous volleys, risky strategy, great points without all the other stuff.

Offline MC ill Logic

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2005, 10:25:30 PM »
Quote from: "wilsonboy"
Bad returns? Look at Andre's. That's like the best ever. ;;)
Not to mention Federer, who right now is a better returner than everybody, even Andre.

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2005, 08:20:17 AM »
Quote from: "MC ill Logic"
Did you say that today's players don't return as well as guys from days of yore?
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Yes I believe in past eras there would be more player who could return Roddick's serve.   The return of serve, apart from the top group of agassi, federer, hewitt, and safin, are quite weak in the return of serve compared to past generations.   It is the weakest part of the mens game today, as shown that so few can return Roddick's serve.   Sampras who's serve is overall superior to Roddick's had his serve returned more by more people than Roddick does.

Well if talent was all that mattered the top 10 would include Arazi, Escude, Malisse, Santoro, etc.  But talent is not all that matters, and even though I agree that Safin and Federer are clearly more naturally talented than Roddick, Safin is only so by a negligible amount.  And Roddick has Safin beat handily in the heart and brains departments, and those are important, too.  Hewitt because number one on speed and heart alone... almost.  Roddick is not super talented as far as stroke production go, but I'd argue that in terms of the complete package, he's among the very elite.
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I agree talent is not all that matters.   However you label him being a clear #2 behind Federer for awhile, then being challenged by the #3 and #4, if they are people like Safin and Hewitt is underachieving.   I assume when you say he is underachieving you mean with his talent he should be doing better than he is, which I find crazy personaly.   I think with his talent, relative to his opponents, his results that last two years are superior than they should be, and he should be praised for surpassing his talent relation to his contemparies, into better than that results, rather than criticized for not doing better.   You admit Safin is more talented than Roddick, yet Roddick regularly beats him, and surpasses him in total ranking and overall results.   So saying he is underachieving does not make sense to me.



Completely disagree.  He may sometimes wonder if he'll ever get a chance to be top dog again, but I don't think he's conceding anything.  I think Safin is the one that's conceded that he'll never fully realize his potential.  Roddick, on the other hand, seems driven to not be just a mere footnote in the chapter of history entitled "The Federer Years..."
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Well I guess only he, and perhaps those closest to him truly know for sure.   If he is planing to hire and fire a new coach every year Federer is the year-end #1 or he doesnt win a slam that year, he will end up having a new coach every year, that is all I have to say.    My personal sense is that he realizes having pressure to be #1 and beat Federer regularly, is too much, because it is too much for him to do, he just cant do it.   So he wants to be with somebody who is sort of a friend, who understands that he shouldnt have the pressure to be #1, win slams regularly, and beat Federer repeatedly, that is just isnt likely to happen.   I am not saying he isnt trying to win and do well, but that he knows the expectations a coach like Gilbert would have of him are too hard to meet, no matter how hard he works, and he wants somebody who understands that.

Actually, I like Andy after having seen him play at Davis Cup.  His match was really fun and in person his game is exciting to watch.  He shows a lot of emotion and it's amazing how much that adds to the experience.  And his hypersonic forehand and serve are freak shows in person.  You can't turn your eyes away because you never know when he's going to rip a shot from hell.  He's cocky, no doubt.  But, man, we need some personalities in the sport right about now.  I'll take Andy's strutting, arm waving, clapping, and pouting over Sampras' imitation of a tongue waving tennis zombie any day of the week.
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Actually I dont think the game needs the personality of somebody who complains, whines, squaks, screeches, cusses, and swears regularly on the court like both Hewitt and Roddick do.   I think Sampras was the other extreme.   The Federer personality is the best type.   He shows emotion and passion while he plays, but he is still sportsmanlike and classy.

Offline MC ill Logic

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2005, 03:55:46 PM »
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Yes I believe in past eras there would be more player who could return Roddick's serve.  The return of serve, apart from the top group of agassi, federer, hewitt, and safin, are quite weak in the return of serve compared to past generations.
Which players in particular are you thinking of?
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It is the weakest part of the mens game today, as shown that so few can return Roddick's serve.
So you're saying that players not being able to easily return the hardest serve in human history proves that the quality of returns are sucking?
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Sampras who's serve is overall superior to Roddick's had his serve returned more by more people than Roddick does.
What are you basing this on?  I agree that Sampras' first serve may have been the toughest of all time.  Roddick's second serve is IMO probably the best I've ever seen.  I think.
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I agree talent is not all that matters.   However you label him being a clear #2 behind Federer for awhile, then being challenged by the #3 and #4, if they are people like Safin and Hewitt is underachieving.
I don't understand this.
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I assume when you say he is underachieving you mean with his talent he should be doing better than he is, which I find crazy personaly.
I don't remember saying he's underachieved.  Please show me where.  In some ways, I agree that he's an overachiever.  "In some ways" because I think he still has some big accomplishments coming his way.
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I think with his talent, relative to his opponents, his results that last two years are superior than they should be, and he should be praised for surpassing his talent relation to his contemparies, into better than that results, rather than criticized for not doing better.
I guess it depends on how you define talent.  I also think that if a guy has the hardest forehand in tennis (not necessarily the best), by far the hardest first serve (arguably the best also), definitely the nastiest second serve, is fit, confident, and has the heart of a lion, to me it's not that incredible that he could be number 1.  In many ways I'm more amazed that Guga managed to be number 1 for a year and I love that guy.  
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You admit Safin is more talented than Roddick, yet Roddick regularly beats him, and surpasses him in total ranking and overall results.   So saying he is underachieving does not make sense to me.
Again, show me where I say he is underachieving.  I honestly can't remember saying that.  I think I said he can still improve.
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My personal sense is that he realizes having pressure to be #1 and beat Federer regularly, is too much, because it is too much for him to do, he just cant do it.
In response:
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Well I guess only he, and perhaps those closest to him truly know for sure.
Okay.  Just saying.  It seems like you're trying to have it both ways.  When you disagree with me you say "well, I guess only Andy knows for sure..."  Then you go on to speculate some more.  Speculation is fun.  I have no problem with it.  

I do agree that I think being completely owned by Federer isn't sitting well with Roddick.  But unlike you I think he's hopeful that he can turn things around.  By all indications it seems to me that he's doing all he can as a professional to change and improve his game enough to challenge Federer.
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So he wants to be with somebody who is sort of a friend, who understands that he shouldnt have the pressure to be #1, win slams regularly, and beat Federer repeatedly, that is just isnt likely to happen.  I am not saying he isnt trying to win and do well, but that he knows the expectations a coach like Gilbert would have of him are too hard to meet, no matter how hard he works, and he wants somebody who understands that.
You're really taking a lot of creative liberties with interpreting Roddick's moves.  From what I've read Brad's basic plan for Roddick seemed to be "hit harder... you can hit serve even harder... you can hit forehand harder..."  Plus, I've heard that Brad is very difficult to be around for too long.  Andre hasn't come straight out and said Brad is an ass, that I know of, but some in his camp I think have.  

What I'm getting at is that if Roddick just can't stand Brad any more, there's just no point in having him for a coach.  Traveling with somebody that bugs the s**t out of you will probably do more harm than any good coaching advice can make up for.
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Actually I dont think the game needs the personality of somebody who complains, whines, squaks, screeches, cusses, and swears regularly on the court like both Hewitt and Roddick do.
Oh, come on.  They pretty much all do that.  Agassi turns into a psycho b***h when things don't go his way.  Federer still slams his racket.  Roddick is one of the best sportsmanship dudes out there.  

As for your initial premise, that Roddick should be praised for overachieving, I think there's a lot of truth to that.

Offline euroka1

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2005, 04:58:35 PM »
Quote from: "MC ill Logic"
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Roddick is one of the best sportsmanship dudes out there.  

As for your initial premise, that Roddick should be praised for overachieving, I think there's a lot of truth to that.



I still agree with the initial premise but I don't see much genuine sportsmanship when Roddick is losing.

Offline MC ill Logic

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Personaly I feel Roddick should be praised for overachieving
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2005, 05:28:46 PM »
Quote from: "euroka1"
Quote from: "MC ill Logic"
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Roddick is one of the best sportsmanship dudes out there.  

As for your initial premise, that Roddick should be praised for overachieving, I think there's a lot of truth to that.



I still agree with the initial premise but I don't see much genuine sportsmanship when Roddick is losing.
What have you seen him do?  I know Ljubicic said two years ago that the players in the locker room expressed to disliking Roddick.  I've never really him do anything that bad.  

Okay, actually, the way he rips into chair umps isn't great.  But I've never seen him diss a player after a loss, or to act like an ass towards his opponent while losing.  I haven't seen all his matches either.